I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

[ForsakenRoe]

how are you still playing heavensward when we're all in endwalker

Man's got access to the HW Classic server but won't share, how cruel

[ASkellington]

Fully agreed, but...


I see absolutely no appeal in purposely leaving Holy as button-bloat in single-target situations. There's nothing wrong with making it a situational/infrequent ST-GCD-#4.

And I see absolutely no appeal in repurposing Holy into a ST rotation.

Of all the things I'd like to expand on in kits healer and non that doesn't even make the top 20. Its not the only ability that is button bloat in ST situations. I don't see it as a problem that needs to be fixed.

[ASkellington]

Man's got access to the HW Classic server but won't share, how cruel

I want this. Please give me the chance to experience HW and SB DRK, AST and MCH before Shb butchered them all.

[Shurrikhan]

And I see absolutely no appeal in repurposing Holy into a ST rotation.

...So you've got three options:

• Don't get another action to use in single-target combat.
• Get another action to use in single-target combat, and use up another button in providing it.
• Get another action to use in single-target combat, do not use up another button in providing it, and (like Misery) allow that action some greater nuance in fights that have adds.

Allowing Holy to be infrequently (e.g., via procs or ramp-up) useful also in single-target combat is the last of the three. It offers the most additional depth... and at no button cost.

It wouldn't remove the ability from being your AoE filler; it'd just added use cases available to it atop that.

Of all the things I'd like to expand on in kits healer and non that doesn't even make the top 20.

Were you not just asking for at least one more attack to press in single-target combat? That would be an additional button to press in single-target combat. Note that it in no way removes Holy from also acting as your AoE filler.

Its not the only ability that is button bloat in ST situations.

That's essentially saying that button bloat is never worth addressing if there's more than 1 button's worth of bloat...

I don't see it as a problem that needs to be fixed.

give WHM 2 new dps buttons

If you go from never using the button in ST to using the button in ST, it is for all intents and purposes... a newly added button. For your other button, add something new, but there's no need to waste Holy in ST or Glare in AoE. We could just use the button that's already there.

[ASkellington]

...It's literally just three options:

• Don't get another action to use in single-target combat.
• Get another action to use in single-target combat, and use up another button in providing it.
• Get another action to use in single-target combat, do not use up another button in providing it, and (like Misery) allow that action some greater nuance in fights that have adds.

I don't have a problem with option 2. "Well that's obvious."

Well no. To clarify: I don't have a problem with adding new buttons. You could add 12 extra buttons across all classes and I'd still be comfortable. I understand that's not the case for everyone and why people would prefer consolidation. But this is the context of my feelings on the matter.

I never said button bloat was never worth addressing. There are plenty of areas where I think abilities could be pruned because they're redundant or changed to be less niche. AOE attacks are not one of them, thus why I see no reason to move Holy into it.

Asking for another attack to press in ST is not what I meant at all when I mean "expand". Making things like Synastry work with oGCDs (and A. Benefic) is more what I mean. You can consider doing the same to Holy in this context, but no. It's not what I meant.

You see it as a waste of space to not use what we already have when its there to be used with changes. Which is a fair stance.

I see it as a waste of potential and more importantly, considering my opinion of the devs currently, a form of "this is all you could be bothered to do?"

Now granted Renathras is the one to propose the idea and not the devs. And the design is more to be accomedating to WHM mains while also giving the expanded rotation we're asking for and not meant to be a slap in the face. But if the devs WERE to do something like this would I appreciate it? I'd appreciate it as much as I currently appreciate SGE.

So no when offered the oppertunity to have something fresh and new and "Use Glare X times to strengthen a Holy you'll want to use in ST because its strength has now been increased" I'm going to advocate for the former.

I am fine with Holy being as it is. I don't see it needing to be more than what it is.

And if you want Holy to have more greater nuance in fights just allow it to Silence if it cannot Stun. WHM had a bind didn't it? Holy can be its Interject then.

[Shurrikhan]

So no when offered the oppertunity to have something fresh and new and "Use Glare X times to strengthen a Holy you'll want to use in ST because its strength has now been increased" I'm going to advocate for the former.

The only unique advantage of using a new button is that whatever effect and visual you want to add doesn't have to also have an AoE damage and AoE stun element to it. Everything else, including even the name, icon, and visuals, can be provided newly despite using that same button.

You want a DoT? It can have a DoT.
You want a burst CD? It can act as a burst CD.
You want a granularly charged-up attack? It can act as a granularly charged up attack.
You want something that builds up stacks before another action B can then be used precisely X seconds after another preparatory action C? An additional effect can do that.

Anything you could do with a new action, you can add to an existing action so long as you aren't directly nerfing that existing action's existing capacities in doing so (i.e., so long as, say, your proc-upgraded version of your situational/filler AoE doesn't lose its capacity to still be a situational/filler AoE, forcing you awkwardly to click off its buff to meet its original purpose).

And if you want Holy to have more greater nuance in fights just allow it to Silence if it cannot Stun. WHM had a bind didn't it? Holy can be its Interject then.

Again, it's not either-or.

Unless you have as low an opinion of XIV players as the devs do, there's nothing preventing a skill from having both a timing that's optimal for your own damage contribution and a timing that's optimal for the party's DPS and a net best balance between the two. A gap-closer can deal damage. A silence can be more than 'just' a silence.

You can have a skill with a situational usage and an "obligatory" usage (flexibly timed or not), both.

Too few fights have anything to interrupt for Holy to be meaningfully used in single-target fights just by including a Silence (which is not the same thing as an Interrupt like Interject, btw), but you easily could have that be one more use case. All three (AoE filler, ST burst, and situational) can coexist.



I don't particularly have any horse in the race here. I'd be fine with just getting two new buttons. I'd be fine with getting 1 new button and an expanded Holy. I'd be fine with getting two new buttons and an expanded Holy atop them.

I just don't see any point to keeping Holy ONLY when a tier (A) has adds and or (B) has something interruptible AND all tanks and physical ranged are dead yet it's somehow not worth wiping. But that is a largely separate matter.

[ASkellington]

I'd be fine with getting 1 new button and an expanded Holy.

And I'm not. Which is the whole point. I was asked why in my opinion I disliked the new rotation.

[Shurrikhan]

And I'm not. Which is the whole point. I was asked why in my opinion I disliked the new rotation.

...What new rotation? Endwalker's? Something of Ren's? A single iteration of Holy has nothing to do with what all effects can be attached to that a given existing spell (which is, again, literally anything and everything).

But, whatever. Fair enough. If you prefer to take 6 buttons (Glare, Holy, Dia, Misery, New-button#1, New-button#2) to have just 5 actions between them, I don't understand that preference, but... you do you.

[ForsakenRoe]

My issue with repurposing current abilities is how limiting the design would need to be. Take the Holy example. To make it a gain in singletarget, it needs to deal more than 310 potency to be 'better than Glare'. 2x damage is 300 so even that isn't enough. you'd have to do 'increases potency by 200' for example, making it 350. It's centered on the player, meaning you could be out of range when you need to use it. Some would say that's a place for optimization, Ren 'fixed' the optimization's element out of it by saying it could gain the ability to be selftargeted or centered on the enemy. A solution to the solution, adding more dev time into the pipeline.

But the main concern is how rigid it would make the rotation. Take the '3 Glare, 1 Holy, repeat' we've seen given as an example. This makes it functionally a 1112 combo. There's no nuance, no deviation, any required healing just bumps the rest of the combo along, making it 11RR12 for example (R being Rapture). It's a solution, yes, but it's a very bland solution, and if we only had one chance to 'get this right', I don't believe this would be enough. I'd take the change if it were made, as 'its better than nothing'. But at this point, the bar is on the ground (or buried in it), so 'getting over the bar' is not a difficult task.

Also, it'd potentially cause issues with weave timings. Holy is a 2.5s cast still, if you can believe that. They could reduce it's cast time to 1.5s like the rest, but again, it'd be another change added on to create a solution for the solution, not the original problem. I can see the merit in trying to keep 'additional buttons' down on some classes, like SCH is absolutely rammed with buttons atm. But at the same time, it's SE's fault we're in the situation where 'button bloat' is a concern, because they have given us so many buttons that we're drowning in OGCDs. So I don't really take 'but the hotbar space' as a be-all-end-all condition to respect, as things can be consolidated to free up space for the sake of making better design. And if it IS a condition to respect, I don't consider 32 to be the 'sacred number', but 36, given that SE regularly exceeds 32 on many jobs at the moment. In which case, WHM for example, with some smart consolidations, can have up to 7 'free spaces' to work with IIRC

[Shurrikhan]

My issue with repurposing current abilities is how limiting the design would need to be. Take the Holy example. To make it a gain in singletarget, it needs to deal more than 310 potency to be 'better than Glare'. 2x damage is 300 so even that isn't enough. you'd have to do 'increases potency by 200' for example, making it 350. It's centered on the player, meaning you could be out of range when you need to use it. Some would say that's a place for optimization, Ren 'fixed' the optimization's element out of it by saying it could gain the ability to be selftargeted or centered on the enemy. A solution to the solution, adding more dev time into the pipeline.

Again, I'm not sure why Ren's "solution" is the only thing being discussed here.

You still have nigh infinite other ways to adjust Holy. Any effect that can be attached to a new ability can also be attached to an existing one, so long as it doesn't remove its original features (for instance, in Holy's case, AoE damage and an AoE stun).

You can have Holy generate stacks of Gathering Light over time or time and/or specific casts that increases its damage, extends its hurtbox, and decreases its cast time. You can give Holy a CD and add an additional effect that reads "During its recast recovery period, Holy can still be used, but deals no additional effect." You could even give the recast time CDR.

Literally anything you want to do with it... you can do with it, so long as your desire wouldn't be specifically countered by it having those original effects (AoE damage and an AoE stun).

It's just one button, so it's not a big deal either way, but there's no further "development pipeline" for an effect being an Additional Effect on an existing ability as compared to making a new skill from scratch. It's just whether you want it to take up one button or two.