I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

[Renathras]

The compromises were applied before I posted what I'd like...

And the compromises on my side were as well. The 4 Healers Model is the compromise from there, thus the middle ground. Note that many people want no change, or only more healing. The first compromise is suggesting any deviation from that. The second is offering 75% of the way to what you're asking for.

To see the non-compromise position on this side, you'd fall out of your chair, too.

Can you tell me which Melee has a low skill floor, and little gap between it and the skill ceiling?

Arguably RPR, but honestly, none. It's why Melee is the worst role in the game, as it's the one that doesn't have a spread. They're all different flavors of the same, and it's an annoying same. Though RPR arguably broke that.

then it must be at 30 right now, which presumably also includes LB Potion and Sprint.

Did you not read the thread when I posted it before OR when I linked it just now?

WHM is 33 with LB, Potion, Sprint. PLD is 37. Without LB/Pot/Sp, they're 30 and 34. Either way, it doesn't change the point that the playerbase as a whole seems to think anything more than 1 button above what WHM has right now is bloated. PLD isn't "deemed to be functional at 37". That was the entire point I was making. PLD at 37 is deemed to be too bloated and people routinely leave several abilities off their bars to try and free up more space.

WHM with +5 abilities would become the single most button Job in the game, at 1 more than even PLD. So your proposal is a pretty horrible idea, given that.

As per my thread

WHM is for people who like bursty feeling damage tools, with more focus on short CDs (10-15s lengths)
SCH is for people who enjoy DOT juggling
AST is for people who prefer to contribute damage via buffing allies rather than direct damage
SGE is almost completely untouched damagewise (just a Toxicon rework), with it's complexity stemming from optimizing the damage>healing identity

Got a link to your thread?

I did say before SGE being left alone would still fit within the confines of the idea (though in a weird way).

After all the insistence that I'm wrong,

You know when I accuse you and the others of attacking me even with I agree with you? Of attacking me literally no matter what position I present?

This is the evidence of that sort of thing.

But hey, I'm game: Make the argument that WHM is the most complex healer right now - and be serious about it. Like genuinely make the argument that you believe WHM is the most complex healer at the moment. I want to see this. /popcorn

WaybackMachine

Good god...

You know what the sad thing is?

I'VE LITERALLY DONE THIS.

But it's also not the point. Shurrikhan was making an unrealistic statement fig leaf. That until I did that, she wouldn't entertain my idea.
...the reality is, she won't entertain my idea either way. It's a hoop to get me to jump through and waste my time on that she'll then just dismiss.

But even so, I've literally done it before. It didn't matter. That's how I know it's an unrealistic standard (no one else is told they must present in depth and tested kits for all four healers or they aren't allowed to propose anything), and that even if I meet it, it doesn't matter anyway. It's a canard for her to avoid debating the points.

If I went back...

Again, would have to see it, but possibly so.

I have literally said before we could leave SGE as it is and it would satisfy the model, and that it's the second best candidate (after WHM) to do so.

You're acting like this is some win or you're poking a hole in my position here when this is literally my stated position; and I've said so many many times. Don't you remember that big fracas I got into with Ty (the one that he may have quit the forum over, I haven't seen him since...) that was based on him wanting SGE to be more complex and insisting it, above all else, couldn't be left as it is?

You can't act like you've caught someone in a trap when all you're doing is saying the very thing they've argued for.

Healer threads and descending into walls of text that nobody reads

Name a more iconic duo

lol, actually made me laugh. My part aside, I've never seen a healer thread (even ones I'm not party to, here, reddit, wherever) that didn't descend into walls of text. Though debateably at least some people DO read them...

Except, I never...

Your first statement was "A lot", I believe, which is relative to the playerbase, so we don't have a metric to that. Though honestly I have less issue with that than with you saying that if some people (of unknown number and unknown percentage of the playerbase) are saying a thing, it must be looked into. Firstly, because we don't know the Devs didn't look into it and just disagree. Secondly, because we don't know how many weren't asking for or wanting it.

I'm not being dismissive of the feedback others give. I question how it compares to the playerbase as a whole. It's easy to find some people that want any given thing in life, the question is if they represent a majority or strong minority or not. Especially if bowing to their demands is going to affect everyone else.

This, though, is pertinent:

Why is it of such importance that we not upset the current healer playerbase when nobody gave a single care to those who were upset going into ShB from SB?

You're an intelligent person, I think. Stubborn, but intelligent. I've answered this question before, but perhaps you didn't see it.

Have you ever noticed I'm consistent in opposing changing things out from under people? For example, I like new SMN, but think it should have been a new Job while old SMN would persist to the present day. Have you ever bothered to read why I say that?

I propose all the time for SCH and AST to be returned to their SB forms. Do you not understand why? Genuinely not understand why?

I think it's been WAY overblown, but I support Kaiten being returned to SAM. Have you never noticed that? Do you not understand the why for that?

_I_ don't have to be personally harmed to feel that other people being harmed is bad. I know many people were upset going from SB to ShB. THAT IS THE VERY REASON WHY I don't want that to happen to ANYONE ELSE. It's ALSO the reason why I support the 4 Healers Model, since it would restore to those people who were upset something of what they lost. I just oppose harming MORE PEOPLE to restore those when I see a solution that can salve the hurts of the wounded without harming (or minimizing the harm to) the rest.

I don't believe in harming more people to absolve past wrongs that said people weren't even involved in - an eye for an eye, especially against the innocent, makes the whole world blind - but I do support a compromise solution that gives to both sides something of what they want.

I DO care about the people who were upset going from SB to ShB. If you believe nothing else about me, believe that. Do you think _I_ want SB SCH back for my sake? I hated that! I would lose access to a Job that I loved in ARR and increasingly liked less and less through the expansions to SB. But I do want that change. For the people who liked it.

Indeed, the only reason I don't include WHM in that is because WHM, specifically, SUUUUUCKED in SB. The ShB change was a breath of fresh air and made the kit actually work for the first time since like 3.1. THAT is why I propose WHM stay the same.

This way, the people who liked SB and were upset by the change get the heavy DoT juggling SCH that they loved back AND the crazy "Balance fishing or bust" AST that they also loved (for reasons that genuinely boggle my mind) back. So that they can BE HAPPY.

And because WHM in SB sucked and the one we have now IS legitimately better, it makes sense to preserve it for people that like healing now (again, no reason to harm them to heal the SB people since we can help the SB people out with SCH and AST without having to give them WHM, too) and because SB WHM legitimately sucked. I can't think of the last time I heard anyone actually defend the SB Lily system.

Does it make sense to you NOW?

I've said all this before, but maybe this time...it will make sense to you...?

[Aravell]

Your first statement was "A lot", I believe, which is relative to the playerbase, so we don't have a metric to that. Though honestly I have less issue with that than with you saying that if some people (of unknown number and unknown percentage of the playerbase) are saying a thing, it must be looked into. Firstly, because we don't know the Devs didn't look into it and just disagree. Secondly, because we don't know how many weren't asking for or wanting it.

The "a lot of people" part of my statement was referring to people who joined the game during ShB/EW asking for more damage options for all healers, this can be proven by seeing the posts in the healer subsection of the forums. Everything else in my statement does not have any sort of appeal to majority attached to it. I choose my words very carefully because anyone will jump on anything they can on these forums.

Does it make sense to you NOW?

I've said all this before, but maybe this time...it will make sense to you...?

I never once said what you're saying doesn't make sense. I understand your viewpoint, but that doesn't stop me from feeling resentful that there are people who treat the current playerbase as a protected class while telling the people who loved the HW and SB era of jobs to go pound sand because they already lost what they did while the current players stand to lose something now. If people want to push for an "us vs them" scenario, I will throw full support behind the side that I favour.

I'm not obligated to support a side that wants my favoured playstyle erased from the game forever. Am I selfish for that? Yes. Do I care after so many years of the devs deleting everything I love about the healer role? No.

[Renathras]

I never once said what you're saying doesn't make sense. I understand your viewpoint, but that doesn't stop me from feeling resentful that there are people who treat the current playerbase as a protected class while telling the people who loved the HW and SB era of jobs to go pound sand because they already lost what they did while the current players stand to lose something now. If people want to push for an "us vs them" scenario, I will throw full support behind the side that I favour.

I'm not obligated to support a side that wants my favoured playstyle erased from the game forever. Am I selfish for that? Yes. Do I care after so many years of the devs deleting everything I love about the healer role? No.

So you're mad at some people, but not me.

So why reject a solution I propose that is explicitly meant to help give you back some of what you lost, due to me genuinely caring about you having lost it?

You seem to accept that I didn't support harming you/them then. And you say you understand my viewpoint, so that means you understand I do wish to help now. Can you set your resentment aside for a solution that grants both?

You don't HAVE to hurt the people who enjoy healers now to get some SB healer kits back. You also shouldn't want to stick it to them, since most people that enjoy healers now didn't ask for or demand or force the changes. They were innocent bystanders to them. I get feeling resentment, but again, I feel like you're an intelligent person. Surely you can see that resentment is misplaced? And that holding on to that resentment, forcing you to reject a solution that would restore what you lost, is actually hurting you, not them?

No one's asking you to support a side.

I'm only asking you to consider accepting a solution that restores to you some of what you lost. (ALL of what you lost if you accept that WHM Lilies were garbage.)

[Aravell]

So you're mad at some people, but not me.

So why reject a solution I propose that is explicitly meant to help give you back some of what you lost, due to me genuinely caring about you having lost it?

You seem to accept that I didn't support harming you/them then. And you say you understand my viewpoint, so that means you understand I do wish to help now. Can you set your resentment aside for a solution that grants both?

You don't HAVE to hurt the people who enjoy healers now to get some SB healer kits back. You also shouldn't want to stick it to them, since most people that enjoy healers now didn't ask for or demand or force the changes. They were innocent bystanders to them. I get feeling resentment, but again, I feel like you're an intelligent person. Surely you can see that resentment is misplaced? And that holding on to that resentment, forcing you to reject a solution that would restore what you lost, is actually hurting you, not them?

No one's asking you to support a side.

I'm only asking you to consider accepting a solution that restores to you some of what you lost. (ALL of what you lost if you accept that WHM Lilies were garbage.)

Maybe you skipped over when I said it, but I said I'm amiable to your solution if SGE is left as is, because SGE was designed in EW, it has never known any past iteration that people fell in love with, so no one is actually losing out on anything. So I never actually opposed your solution, I'm not someone you have to convince. If we can't have a skill ceiling on every healer, I can settle with keeping SGE as it is, I'm not ok with throwing WHM under the bus once again given their history of being bad.

You'll have massive trouble convincing everyone else to leave SGE as is though, because it's what SE calls the dps healer, also the lore behind it is that it's very complex. Not that SE cares about the lore anymore, given that the lv30 AST quest still says The Bole has a protective effect.

[ForsakenRoe]

zzzzzz

part 1

Note that many people want no change, or only more healing. The first compromise is suggesting any deviation from that. The second is offering 75% of the way to what you're asking for.

Then it's a good thing I pitched (assuming Cleric gets nuked as per below) one damage button, and three healing/mitigation buttons, isn't it? I don't see it as being my problem if SE refuses to make the healing requirements actually demand we use our healing kits, I'm just following in their footsteps of adding 'healing tools that are not required (but might be if they make the HPS requirements higher for once)', and adding more heal/mit tools that we don't need would theoretically cause the chorus of 'we need more damage to heal with all these bloody healing tools we have' to get louder, raising the chance SE actually adds more healing required (theoretically)

Arguably RPR, but honestly, none. It's why Melee is the worst role in the game, as it's the one that doesn't have a spread. They're all different flavors of the same, and it's an annoying same. Though RPR arguably broke that.

You know you don't have to do the Double Communio thing if you don't want to, nobody's forcing you to do the 'optimal thing'. I play like an ape as BLM in EX roulettes, the few times I go in there as one. Dropping my Thunder, messing up slidecasts, forgetting to use Freeze before going back to Fire phase for AOE FlareSpam (so no umbral hearts, so 'Flare Spam' is just one Flare). Not a single complaint about how trash I am has been levied my way

WHM is 33 with LB, Potion, Sprint. PLD is 37.
WHM with +5 abilities would become the single most button Job in the game, at 1 more than even PLD. So your proposal is a pretty horrible idea, given that.

With the consolidations of Cure1>Cure2, and Medica1>Medica2, that takes 2 off, taking it down from 38 (current 33 + my 5 additions) to 36. If needed, we can remove my Cleric Stance as it's the most 'button bloaty' of the suggestions I had and doesn't really add all that much. That makes it 35. Problem sort of solved. If 35 is still an issue, it's time to start looking at SE's design and how much they love to give us random crap we don't bloody need, like Aquaveil, for the sake of 'ooh new shiny button'. Or Repose. Or Lucid Dreaming.

Got a link to your thread?

I did say before SGE being left alone would still fit within the confines of the idea (though in a weird way).

1: Dosis, Pneuma, Diagnosis, Prognosis, Dyskrasia and Phlegma, and any Eukrasian variants thereof (in other words, everything that currently has MP costs) now costs ZERO MP.

2: Soteria, Krasis, Zoe now have a 5 second cooldown, and an MP cost (maybe 1000 idk). Eukrasia now has an MP cost, albeit slightly lower (maybe 700, comparatively speaking)

3: E.Diagnosis, E.Prognosis and E.Dosis now have their base form's potency, with the additional effect being just that, additional, potencies adjusted to compensate. This means E.Diagnosis is 450p, with a shield equal to 120% of HP restored. E.Prognosis is 300p, shield equal to 100% of HP restored (yes it went down by 20p, it's not a big deal). E.Dosis now does 330p up-front damage, with a DOT effect of 35 for 30sec (same total, but half of it is now frontloaded). Currently, if you accidentally Eukrasia before a cast but don't need the Eukrasia, you have to either click it off (clunky) or suck up the loss of effectiveness. With this, all you lose is the MP cost. Which still sucks, just not as much.

4: Toxicon now has a 5sec cooldown, and an MP cost. Toxicon 2 is removed. Addersting is reworked as a resource into a 0-100 gauge. Addersgall is reworked into a 0-100 gauge. Addersgall is generated both passively at a rate of 1 per second, and actively via the class's skills. All previous costs of 'one Addersgall' now cost 25 Addersgall. Yes this means you can pool 4 Druocholes instead of 3.

5: A new button, Pankardia (MP cost 1000), is added as a level 68 skill. It's effect would be 'Applies 4 stacks of PanKardion to all nearby allies. When Kardion heals, every ally with PanKardion receives a heal of the same potency, consuming one stack per Kardion heal triggered.'

6: Soteria has it's effect changed to 'Applies 4 stacks of Soteria to self. Each Kardion heal is increased by 50% of the damage dealt by the attack that triggered the heal, consuming one stack. Area-Effect skills only count the primary target.'

7: Zoe has it's effect changed to 'Applies 4 stacks of Zoe to self. Causes Kardion and Pankardion to additionally apply a barrier, equal to 25% of the amount healed by the original effect, consuming one stack. Multiple applications of this barrier may overlap, strengthening the barrier's effectiveness. Does not stack with Eukrasian Prognosis.'

8: Krasis has it's effect changed to 'Applies 4 stacks of Krasis to self. Allows any non-instant spell to be cast with zero cast time, consuming one stack.'

9: Toxicon has it's effect changed to 'Drains the Addersting Gauge to 0, and applies 4 stacks of Toxicon to self. Offensive spells have increased potency, scaling based on how much Addersting was consumed. Consumes one stack per offensive spell used.' (at the moment, I'm thinking a 1:1 rate, so 100 gauge is 100p boost for 4 hits, but this can be spent earlier if needed, to reset the gauge to 0 and re-jig when you hit 100 to line up with raidbuffs better, for optimization gamers to play with)

10: Triggering a Kardion heal in any way generates 1 Addersting. Spending Soteria, Zoe and Krasis stacks have the additional effect of 'Increases Addersting gauge by 4.' (All 4 stacks total up to 16 gauge, 20 in total due to the Kardion triggering) Eukrasia grants 8 gauge on use. Spending Toxicon charges causes the Addersgall gauge to increase by 4 each. Addersgall spenders still retain their MP restoration effects, but the MP restoration potency might be rebalanced.

11: Phlegma has a 'Eukrasian' variant, which is a target-based circle AOE (like Phlegma currently is), does 50% of your current Phlegma's damage to the target and all enemies near it (and consumes a charge of Phlegma), but additionally applies Eukrasian Dosis to all targets hit for 15 seconds (this would mean a total potency of 475 per target in an AOE, over 15 sec), and uses Phlegma's current animation. Main Phlegma now uses Toxicon 1's animation, because it's our hardest hit and that animation is in the trailer for the game so it deserves to be front and center.

12: Rhizomata has it's effect changed to 'Adds 25 Addersgall. Causes the next MP cost to be reduced to 0. Duration: 10sec.'

13: Eukrasian Diagnosis' shield break effect changed from 'Grants one Addersting' to 'Grants Phlegmatic, allowing the cast of Phlegma without spending a charge'. This would not be a 100% refund (600 vs 660 of 2x Dosis), but it's better than what we have now. Also, going into a burst window with a E.Diagnosis, then spending your Phlegmatic charge, followed by the natural 2 Phlegma charges is probably a DPS gain for those optimization types, and would be a bit like DRK banking it's Dark Arts charge for raidbuffs

14: Pepsis now costs 500mp, has a very low CD (maybe 5sec), and generates 8 Addersting on use (even if it doesn't do anything you get the gauge). When Eukrasian Diagnosis or Eukrasian Prognosis break, they leave a buff on that player called Second Opinion for about 5 seconds. When Pepsis is used, it consumes Second Opinion to heal that player for the amount of HP the barrier protected for. Essentially, if you ever played a Character Action game like Viewtiful Joe, Wonderful 101, whatever, and used the Ukemi (jump button right as you land, instantly heal back the damage you took), it's that with a bit more leniency. And it gives Pepsis a much more interesting use case.

With something like this, I don't think having a damage kit of just 'Dosis, E.Dosis, Phlegma' is necessarily that bad. Like AST, the 'fun gameplay' doesn't necessarily come from the actual attacking, but how your kit interacts with your attacking, and in this case, with your healing too. Augments would resolve in a set order-of-operations, being Krasis, Toxicon, Soteria, Pankardia, Zoe. In other words, the game would check, in order, if you can instantcast via Krasis (Swiftcast would still be prioritized), then do the damage/heal calculation stuff. As an example, lets take a Dosis cast, at 330 potency, and the Kardia heal of 170 that it triggers, and follow it. We Toxicon that damage (my Dosis currently hits for about 10k before crit/DHit) and increase the potency of that hit, so this Dosis we're looking at is now 430p (becasue we spent 100 gauge to boost it). Next, we take 50% of the damage it deals (it's now dealing 13000ish, so 6500) and add that to the Kardia heal (for me, that's about 4500). So now our total heal is 11000. Next, we spread it to everyone at a 1:1 ratio via Pankardia. Lastly, we apply a shield of 2750 on top of the heal, to everyone.

Chances are you'd get 2-3 GCDs in while a boss casts the castbar for it's big raidwide, so that'd be a roughly 8250 shield due to it stacking on itself. And remember, it can't be applied alongside E.Prognosis, so if a boss has some way to chip away at shields before a raidwide (eg, the bleed from Aionagonia that ticks right up until Dominion is cast in P8S, or the whole of Firestorms of Asphodelos in general back in P3S with it's fire rain), that's gonna mess with your 'setup window'. Also, my Prognosis heals me for about 7.3k before crit, so the above rework would mean that, to equal E.Prognosis, this shield would have to have 2.5 untouched applications stacked up. No bleeds or raidwides or anything messing with it.

'Wait a second, 10k regen per hit, and building up to a 'potentially 11k shield on the whole party? That doesn't sound right, that sounds OP! Pure healers would be dead on arrival, etc' Well, yes and no. See, while it's 'theoretically possible', the factors that go into it would be ridiculous and never actually play out in practice. To put up that healing would require using all four augments at once, and with their 4 stack limit, you'd either have to quadweave them to get them all lined up (which noone would want to do) or have their durations staggered. You could Krasis and doubleweave effects together, getting you 3 stacks of 'everything is lined up', but then you have the other issue of pulling this off: MP costs. Applying 4 of these augments, plus the Krasis for swiftcasting to get them lined up better, would run you 4000 MP. Almost half your entire bar! Yes it's theoretically possible to do it, but you'd probably not need this amount of healing, and would rather juggle your Addersgall tools to reduce the amount of different augments you're applying, because you'd rather use the MP in a more rationed out way, to keep your other tools being used effectively and not letting them overcap, etc. I'm fairly sure some other stuff would need to be changed about too, such as removing the regen trait from Kerachole (or changing it to a barrier, cos, y'know, we're a barrier healer) to incentivize actually using these augments.

By having Toxicon and the new Addersting gauge be a damage increasing effect granted by Augment Stack consumption, Addersgall being refreshed faster by Toxicon consumption, and MP being restored by Addersgall consumption, we create a cycle of 'Spend A to get more B, spend B to get more C, spend C to get more A'. Ideally I'd want a 4th resource in the cycle to really lean into the identity of 'everything is 4' I seem to have made, but that might just be bloat for the sake of it. Either way, this I think would create a very different playstyle to the current healers, being as we're spending MP not on our healing, but on how we augment that healing. This has additional side effects too, for the more casual side of the playerbase. First and foremost is the fact that, if the base healing kit is MP-Free, we can spam it as much as we want. There's no need for anyone to say 'oh but what about the new healers this will be overwhelming' because if there's a panic situation, we can spam Prognosis and it is completely free. Eukrasian Prognosis, that still costs though.

Secondly, and this is purely by accident I swear, but this actually makes Piety be more than just 'OK I have enough now it's a dead stat'! See, if you generate more MP than you need, you can't really do anything with it in the current game, it's just...there. With this however, in the same way that we dump spare Addersgalls on Druochole just for the MP restore, we can dump spare mana on Krasis or Soteria or whatever. Why? Because spending those stacks gets us Addersting gauge, which gets us to Toxicon, and Toxicon gets us more damage! By getting more Toxicon uses in the fight, it would help to offset the 'less damage' that comes from having more Piety on your gear. Of course, careful balancing would need to be done to make sure 'stack Piety on purpose for more uptime on Toxicon' is not the prevalent strategy. Or maybe it wouldn't? Maybe 'Crit isnt the best stat by a country mile' would actually be a great breath of fresh air for the game?

Overall though, I think this would allow for a completely different mindset on how we heal, vs how we do damage. Everything feeds into each other in a cycle, incentivizing intelligent rotation of resources to overcap as little as possible, and clever use of which augment skill and when would allow for a real 'damage done = more healing done' aesthetic via Pankardia and Soteria. I didn't even need to remove any buttons from the class (not even Pepsis!), instead only needing to add one, Pankardia. If we do need to remove a button to make room though, I'd nominate Pepsis though. Nothing suggested is the 'be all end all', but I think it's fairly telling that people all have ideas for the class, and seem to have gone in completely different directions on it. It really shows, to me at least, how much room there is for growth for the class, beyond it's current form as 'SCH without fairy jank'.

Knock yourself out. I've not touched it for a long time so some things might not be fully up to date but I don't have time to go through and fix everything. Potencies Percentages MP costs Cooldowns etc can be tuned as needed. Wrote it like a year ago, so all the 'exact heal values' and such are based on 6.2 gear

part 2

But hey, I'm game: Make the argument that WHM is the most complex healer right now - and be serious about it. Like genuinely make the argument that you believe WHM is the most complex healer at the moment. I want to see this. /popcorn

I won't, because I don't find it to be the most complex healer, that'd be AST. But at the same time, I'd personally dispute it being the 'simplest' healer, just because it's got to optimize when to spend it's lilies, such that it fulfills it's healing requirements AND is able to put a Misery into raidbuffs at each 2min mark. Despite it's more proactive nature as a barrier healer, SGE is probably 'more simple' imo. It has way too many burst healing tools for 'reacting to big damage' for a barrier healer, Pneuma alone muddies the waters of the Pure/Barrier split far too much

lol, actually made me laugh. My part aside, I've never seen a healer thread (even ones I'm not party to, here, reddit, wherever) that didn't descend into walls of text. Though debateably at least some people DO read them...

Just goes to show how much passion to make the role 'the best it can be' there is from all sides I guess.

And because WHM in SB sucked and the one we have now IS legitimately better, it makes sense to preserve it for people that like healing now (again, no reason to harm them to heal the SB people since we can help the SB people out with SCH and AST without having to give them WHM, too) and because SB WHM legitimately sucked. I can't think of the last time I heard anyone actually defend the SB Lily system.

Which is why SE messed up when going into SHB. Adding the new lilies was a good idea. Nobody's got issues with that (Misery being a damage loss wasn't even that much of an issue for me but it was for some I guess). The issue was that Aero 3 got removed entirely, and Aero 2's duration got bumped up from 18 to 30s, so we use it less. Those changes were not needed at all. Misery and the Lilies could have existed alongside those two skills, as they were at the time. They could have upgraded them to Dia and Banish respectively, that's fine. But they said, for SB, they wanted WHM to have a more 'pure healer' focus. And WHM got shunned from PFs because AST was too good in comparison. They should have brought WHM up to AST and SCH's level, but instead they brought those two down to below WHM with things like 'lets remove ED again' and 'let's make AST's OGCD potencies absolutely dogwater low' (which should serve to prove that 'lower OGCD potencies to enforce GCD healing' probably isn't going to go down well), then buffed things to put them more equal to WHM. But still, the end result is they brought some jobs down, instead of bringing the lagging one up, because they couldn't accept their 'pure healer' design for WHM wasn't a good one.

Also, note that everyone loved the idea of Misery when it came out. A big meaty 900p hit for WHM of all classes? Hell yeh. Wonder why they liked it so much then, and celebrated when it was made damage neutral in 6.1? Because it's a damage button, and big damage number make monke brain happy. If it were just a case of 'it lets you heal damage neutrally', making the Lilies OGCD and removing Misery would have done the same

Seems there's a character limit on HB tags. Who knew?

Maybe you skipped over when I said it, but I said I'm amiable to your solution if SGE is left as is, because SGE was designed in EW, it has never known any past iteration that people fell in love with, so no one is actually losing out on anything. So I never actually opposed your solution, I'm not someone you have to convince. If we can't have a skill ceiling on every healer, I can settle with keeping SGE as it is, I'm not ok with throwing WHM under the bus once again given their history of being bad.

All we need is for Toxicon to be something more than 'scuffed Ruin2' IMO, and then SGE's current damage rotation can be as is. Instead, the skillcap of the class can come from minimizing GCD heal use via exploitation of various Kardia effects, like making it AOE, turning it into a shield, flat power boost for it, etc. It'd still have things like E.Prognosis for those times/skill levels where the damage>healing gameplay isn't gonna do it, like you don't have enough time to set up shielding via Kardia in a situation like Harrowing Hell, so you'd resort to the E.Prog spam. I even would make Prognosis cost 0 MP so if someone's panic-spamming (which they would have to be, if they're resorting to bloody Prognosis of all things) then MP cost isn't a factor they need to worry about. This way, it's easier to get people to dip their toes into trying the 'Damage>Healing' gameplay, because if they do mess it up and get themselves into a 0 MP situation, they can still heal. Ye Olde Cleric Stance showed us that if someone's got a barrier in the way of 'I am panicking and need to heal now' like a CD on turning off Cleric, then they are less likely to even try to use the system, so a Kardia expansion should be aimed to avoid that

[Aravell]

All we need is for Toxicon to be something more than 'scuffed Ruin2' IMO, and then SGE's current damage rotation can be as is. Instead, the skillcap of the class can come from minimizing GCD heal use via exploitation of various Kardia effects, like making it AOE, turning it into a shield, flat power boost for it, etc. It'd still have things like E.Prognosis for those times/skill levels where the damage>healing gameplay isn't gonna do it, like you don't have enough time to set up shielding via Kardia in a situation like Harrowing Hell, so you'd resort to the E.Prog spam. I even would make Prognosis cost 0 MP so if someone's panic-spamming (which they would have to be, if they're resorting to bloody Prognosis of all things) then MP cost isn't a factor they need to worry about. This way, it's easier to get people to dip their toes into trying the 'Damage>Healing' gameplay, because if they do mess it up and get themselves into a 0 MP situation, they can still heal. Ye Olde Cleric Stance showed us that if someone's got a barrier in the way of 'I am panicking and need to heal now' like a CD on turning off Cleric, then they are less likely to even try to use the system, so a Kardia expansion should be aimed to avoid that

In regards to SGE, I personally want to see the Kardia side of their kit get expanded upon instead of the damage side. As SGE is designed in EW and there's no previous iteration that was lost, I think it's fine to keep their damage kit simple and intuitive. But the dev team should look into expanding the Kardia side and allow multiple different manipulations, that way, SGE can actually claim the title of "DPS healer" without actually making the damage kit any more complex than it is now because they use DPS to do healing.

I'm not sure if Ren's idea of keeping the job as is will allow for the Kardia usage to be expanded upon while keeping the damage kit as it is (Maybe fix Toxikon). But if it does allow that, then there'd be no complaints from me. Having the skill ceiling be on the healing side suits me just fine as well.

[Connor]

I think Sage and Kardia / Addersting / Addersgall is a good example of how they could create a synergistic healing/damage system.

Varied Kardia effects could feed into Addersting which could feed into Addersgall. Like if Eukrasian Dosis granted a shield that then gave Addersting, then using Toxicon or [new dps skill] granted Addersgall, using Addersgall increased the effect of the next Eukrasian spell. Maybe Toxicon could act like a ‘Kardia Cure II’ to incentivise its use even further. Phlegma could have Kardia healing based on damage dealt rather than flat potency so it doubles as a strong heal (not that we need more lol). I feel like Pneuma could have something a bit more interesting as well, since right now it’s basically just Assize on Steroids lol. Not that the current version is bad, just a bit ‘meh’. Maybe it could get a reverse-Soteria effect where all enemies hit are afflicted with a debuff that increases the healing from Kardia when damaging them. though that’s lesss ‘technical’ and more ‘obtuse’ lol


It’s sort of like a damage rotation but it brings the healing / damage aspects together rather than the more clear divide we have now. Sage always seemed to go for a ‘technical’ healing style to me, so I don’t think it would be too much for each systems to properly synergise with the other.

I’m not so sure about AoE Kardia though, since wouldn’t that be really powerful? Anytime an AoE attack came out you could fart out Soteria and restore the party to full health without hitting a single heal. Which, while it certainly is thematic to Sage, might be a bit difficult to balance. Then again, we also live in a world where Litany and Macrocosmos exist, so it’s not like the devs are about healing skills being too strong (except for the few boss attacks specifically designed for these abilities lol?). If it was too strong though, maybe they could just make it so the spread Kardia healing potency is lower than the main heal.

[ForsakenRoe]

It’s sort of like a damage rotation but it brings the healing / damage aspects together rather than the more clear divide we have now. Sage always seemed to go for a ‘technical’ healing style to me, so I don’t think it would be too much for each systems to properly synergise with the other.

I’m not so sure about AoE Kardia though, since wouldn’t that be really powerful? Anytime an AoE attack came out you could fart out Soteria and restore the party to full health without hitting a single heal. Which, while it certainly is thematic to Sage, might be a bit difficult to balance. Then again, we also live in a world where Litany and Macrocosmos exist, so it’s not like the devs are about healing skills being too strong (except for the few boss attacks specifically designed for these abilities lol?). If it was too strong though, maybe they could just make it so the spread Kardia healing potency is lower than the main heal.

Exactly. One of the main gripes I have with healing in this game is that the only overlap or synergy between 'healing' and 'damage' is the whole 'damage neutral heal' thing. Kardia could break that down and create a gameplay style that has a much greater focus on synergistically damaging and healing

AOE Kardia is potentially overpowered, if the devs balanced it in such a way that makes it overpowered. We can currently 'fart out' Physis, or Pneuma, or Ixochole, and do obscene amounts of 'free healing'. But these are 'balanced' by cooldowns and resource costs. So, AOE Kardia would also be theoretically balanced by similar restrictions. It could also have the effect of reducing the Kardia potency, similar to how the AOE AST cards would have half strength. In which case, with the current Kardia healing I can put out (BIS gear, golbez weapon) being 5k, or 8.4k with Soteria, that'd make a 'Pankardia' be 2500, or 4.2k under current Soteria. Kerachole's regen is currently about 3k per tick for me, so the '50% effectiveness' thing is probably fine. I wouldn't want 'AOE Kardia' to be a flat 90s 120s whatever CD though, I'd rather it be gated by some other method like MP or Gauge, such that you can play around it a lot more often

edit: random idea with zero thought would be for Pneuma to be a channel like that new BLU spell (the laser one from Amaurot). For 5s, every 1s you pulse 130 damage to all enemies in a line in front of you (to be roughly damage neutral) and pulse say 200p of healing around you (total 1000)

[Shurrikhan]

I still really, really do not want a constantly-available (non-CD-locked) AoE Kardia. A CD-limited one would be less awful, but still likely a net loss, imo, especially if occluding other uses for Kardia that wouldn't devalue swapping it about.

Sage is kind of uniquely bearable in low-level roulettes precisely because of its Kardia swapping. Just due to the nature of AoE potencies in this game opposite ST ones (usually only halved for heals, or even literally stronger than ST direct heals, such that they do 4x to 10x ST spell's outputs, even excluding Cure/Physick/etc.), there seems far too high a chance of it being optimal to just leave it spread across everyone, or getting almost the full reward of optimal swaps + spreads by just leaving it spread. And since burst AoE damage appears tuned around that... I don't see that changing anytime soon.

The other worry I have for it is bundling, especially if Kardia were changed to actually be based on damage, rather than simply being based on casting a damaging action. While it might at least add some priority conflict opposite SGE's hitting all its damage CDs during raid buffs, it would likely just replace it with 'hold AoE Kardia for pressing all the damage CDs' / 'hold bankable damage for AoE Kardia', which don't seem much better. I worry it'd feel as tacked-on and narrow in its use case as Goring Blade does on PLD.

________________________

Personally, what I want most from SGE is to feel like it's actually doing something unique with its nouliths. Barring that (as a pipedream for weapons to see tailored, fitting, unique use and jobs to play in obviously distinct ways), I'd just like to see SGE have a whole lot more damage swing and bankability and for Kardia to scale with that damage, rather than just with casts.

Moving Kardia about is one of the most fun things, to me, about the job, so I certainly do not want to see that degraded. I'd sooner have a CD that grants a bonus HoT or shield component per Kardia-heal, further encouraging bouncing it around, than a skill that just temporarily negates the value of most of Kardia's gameplay.

[Renathras]

Maybe you skipped over when...

It is a conundrum. I think the disagreement there stems from SGE being more damage focused (as you point out) and about WHM being thrown under the bus. Far as I'm concerned, WHM post-6.1 is honestly the best it's ever been. ARR would be but for Cleric Stance being such a disaster, but it's runner up due to the fact it wasn't a big deal at the time anyway. It would be weird for the "dps focused" healer Job to be the least DPS rotation of them, but it would still be a passable solution.

Of course, the problem still remains that if people won't allow for that, then WHM would be the other logical choice.

zzzzzz

Was hoping for a link. Will have to see if I can find it in the healer forum (guessing it was posted there) later.

SGE easier than WHM?

...agree to disagree.

I'd rate SGE 2nd myself, so I'm not saying it's super high end, but Lilies just flow so much better than anything SGE has to me and largely get the job done with far fewer buttons it needs to use to do so.

Just goes to show how much passion to make the role 'the best it can be' there is from all sides I guess.

With this, I agree. At the very least, we can say there are a lot of people that care.

.

EDIT:

Oh, not proposing this, per se, since it's more a "just popped into my head" thought but...

What if Kardia had a toggle where you could swap between AOE and single target? The single target version would do whatever it does (150 healing to the Kardia target per DPS spell used, whatever), the AOE version splits this to 25 (or 20?) per person - technically more for an 8 man party (6 people injured would be the break even point for 25, 20 would only break even-ish with 8 for 160 total), but where it's a lot lighter amount of healing. That would be the only way it'd make sense for me to have that free healing all the time.

Otherwise, something like a 60 sec CD for 10 sec would make more sense to me. "But that's too powerful!" That's Whispering Dawn... <_< "But what if you use Pankardia for Soteria?!" Just make Soteria only work with the Kardion effect, not the Pankardion effect. Simple.