I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

[Maltothoris]

It definitely also an issue when they keep trying to do too many things at once. The mizzteq interview before endwalker show how they were trying to have it many different ways, https://www.fanbyte.com/games/news/f...sage-endwalker

“We have been trying to make it so that healers are required to perform more heals. The content damage that you are receiving becomes a little more intense, so that healers are a bit more busy,” said Yoshida in the interview, via a live translator. “We are trying to make it so that healers are working a bit harder to do more heals in a battle encounter for sure, and that is kind of the trend that we are trending towards.”

Yoshida did acknowledge that the team doesn’t want to make encounters so difficult that healers are white-knuckling their way through each and every fight. That would be counter to the general push for accessibility in FFXIV. “If we make it too intense, the number of people who can clear the content will be very limited. We don’t want to have a situation where somebody is just healing the whole time or have to have to manage MP constantly,” said Yoshida.

They want healers to heal but they don't want it to be the only thing they do. They want to make it harder but not too hard not that it is a challenge for causals. They also don't want mp to be a hard focus either. They kinda set their focus to be too board I would say.

Also I will always stand by the fact that the devs may play healers but they do not main healers.

[OgruMogru]

It definitely also an issue when they keep trying to do too many things at once. The mizzteq interview before endwalker show how they were trying to have it many different ways, https://www.fanbyte.com/games/news/f...sage-endwalker



They want healers to heal but they don't want it to be the only thing they do. They want to make it harder but not too hard not that it is a challenge for causals. They also don't want mp to be a hard focus either. They kinda set their focus to be too board I would say.

Also I will always stand by the fact that the devs may play healers but they do not main healers.

If they don't want mana to be an issue they should do what they did for TP and remove mana and have all abilities/skills/spells accrue stacks.

[Shurrikhan]

If they don't want mana to be an issue they should do what they did for TP and remove mana and have all abilities/skills/spells accrue stacks.

...Why this, especially the bolded part?

Yes, those not already Medica II spamming could have a near-identical later-game GCD experience after removing MP (and, presumably, removing Lucid Dreaming Cure, Physick, and Benefic while revamping Diagnosis and nerfing GCD AoE heals), since you scarcely used them anyways...

...But, (A) what do you mean by "stacks" here (and are they applied to the ability? the healing recipient?) and (B) why would that be necessary?

[Shurrikhan]

BOTH sides need to change. Which one comes first I don't care. They can increase the healing parts of the game; its not going to stop me complaining that outside of group content DPS on healers is abysmal, uninspired and still needs to change. Especially because you and I both know they aren't going to increase the requirements enough so that we don't have any down time. Its LITERALLY not possible. Even with a smaller healing kit.

Fully agreed, but...

Holy does not need to be more prevalent in WHM's kit. It can stay as it is as a reference to its previous incarnations. We now have Glare and Dia to support it and I'd argue the lily system as well. Giving back Stone/Aero and/or a new water damaging or support ability back to WHM both fixes the problem that mains had with the switch to Dia and Glare as well as gives WHM more to maintain. And I would prefer it over putting Holy into the rotation.

Because Holy does not equal Misery or even RDM's post melee spells. Holy being introduced into the rotation would be the same as doing Malefic into Gravity. Or using Jolt and then instead of Veraero III you use Veraero II, on a single target. The damage would be fixed (because it wouldn't be the same as if you just randomly hit it), but its just as tone deaf. I'd rather not have it.

I see absolutely no appeal in purposely leaving Holy as button-bloat in single-target situations. There's nothing wrong with making it a situational/infrequent ST-GCD-#4.

(Personally, I love when utility sees overlap, like Rockbreaker often being the only way to keep up GL3 all the way to meteors in T9/T9S, or Sonic Thrust being useful for uptime and BotD/LotD on Neo Exdeath. It's often best that certain situations do exclude certain actions of shared opportunity cost, but never categorically; having Glare lack even an infrequent use in AoE or Holy even an infrequent use in ST just seems wasteful.)

Imagine ARR through Stormblood BLM, for instance, if Flare were purposely made useless in single-target. Just... why? Bonus damage to primary target / (higher base damage and) reduced damage to later victims is enough to deal with tuning implications.

[Renathras]

Imagine having so little confidence in your own opinions that you just outright refuse to defend them

That's really not fair.

I will argue with a brick wall. I do it with the Healer forums all the time. But a lot of people in life aren't as stubborn as I am, and don't like the verbal riposte. That is, they don't like to debate endlessly with people they know will refuse to change their minds no matter what they say. For my part, I think it's still a worthwhile exercise because of other people potentially reading the discussions. But a lot of people are conflict averse and would rather just say their piece, possibly offer a rebuttal or two to points people bring up opposed to them, and if by then they judge the other side of the argument will not budge no matter what - which does describe most of the prevalent posters here in the pro-DPS camp - to gracefully and diplomatically back out of the discussion.

I feel like that parting shot you tried to make there is pretty unfair and, frankly, kind of meanspirited. Against me, sure, I probably deserve it. But Zeastria is always respectful and kind of a go-along/get-along friendly person here. She didn't deserve that.

Actually Astros only had 1 dot in stormblood. THey just had Malefic 3 and combust 2. The other damage actions were earthly star and random minor arcana single target lord which was rng. It was heavensward where they actually had 4 dps buttons. Malefic 2, combust, combust 2 and aero. The thing that stormblood did was reduce their cast time to 1.5 for the card weaving.

I was wondering this, too. I thought I had looked back at SB and seen only the one DoT for AST at that point, but I wasn't sure and didn't play it at all back then. Thanks for the info.

By what warrant? You're using this as an excuse to limit what options for engagement are available to any and all players,

What are you even talking about? My proposal has always included at least 2 (I think that was the initial pitch) and for over a year 3 healer Jobs with more complex rotations. The players that want that would have 75% of the healer role as options to choose from. Where is this "any and all players" coming from?

Also, what you ask for is not "A small increase in depth". It's a big increase. It's small TO YOU but not to others, clearly.

A lot of people who joined in ShB have been repeating certain phrases....

Let's be real, there are people that will complain about literally anything. Remember people complaining about SCH after the Job reveal trailer for EW before getting their hands on Expedient? Even universally good changes will be opposed. I forget which, but one of you (Sabezy?) was posting about how people were glad Cleric was removed and how it was a good change for the game (old threads) a week or so ago, despite people for months/years insisting it was a super good ability and everyone hated it being removed. Ironically, in trying to prove me wrong, she proved the position I've held for years actually was the majority position.

The better way to put it is some people have complained about things, and do so no matter what.

The trick for developers is to see which things are actually worth moving on and which are not. For example "Nature spells" isn't a gameplay thing, it's an aesthetic one. And while aesthetics are important, BEFORE ShB, as far back as ARR, people were complaining "Why does WHM have nature spells instead of holy spells?" There will always be those kinds of complaints because of people thinking Jobs should be different things. There are WARs who love the unga bunga and WARs who enjoyed the more technical version of the Job before it was made unga bunga.

Some WHMs complained about Aero 3, but a lot were also very pleased with Misery. Misery was, in fact, the most praised change to the Job going into ShB, and is an ability that has become Job defining since then, and effectively it replaced Aero 3 in the rotation (between it and the two builders that lead to it).

What I want is different from what I'm fine with. I've said before that I'd be satisfied if they reverted AST and SCH back to the SB playstyle, though I'd prefer a playstyle more like HW SMN myself, but I can see that not everyone wants or enjoys something so convoluted. SB, however, is a decent baseline which most can accept to be a good compromise between HW and ShB.

That's fair.

But that wouldn't satisfy the 4 Healers Model for AST being "the one left alone". I guess we're having two parallel arguments here. One is your take on AST and one is Roe offering it as tribute so that WHM is made into a DPSer instead.

For AST to fill that role, it would NOT be the SB version. It would be, as I said, something more simplified with a far lower APM cadence more akin to WHM now. Something I suspect will never happen, but I suppose it depends on what they do with the rework. My own proposal, as you know, is to leave WHM alone and to revert SCH and AST to their SB toolkits. But that's been soundly rejected by the "more DPS" people.

And this is precisely why you are viewed as a complete joke.,

Seriously, what the hell happened to you, Sebazy? You've become a total dick.

As for data:

When I posted various census records, when I did deep dives into rotations with action use per minute (normalized) counts, where I did a deep dive into the Steam numbers comparing apples-to-apples points in expansions, where I posted the damage profile of the Halone fight to counter your argument on the Byregot one (you can reject my conclusions, but not that I didn't present data with the argument)? I know this is your new bullying tactic "attack of the month" now that you've decided to make it your life's mission on this forum to harass and heckle me, but I've provided data. You're like that person that decided "racism" is a good insult and call people you don't like it, whether it fits or not.

YOU, on the other hand, have not. You provide anecdote, insist it's data, then demand actual data to contest it.

You have absolutely *ZERO* right to hand wave off other peoples views as anecdotal given that's *ALL YOU EVER DO YOURSELF*

BOTH OF US present data as well as anecdote as well as argument. YOU have just decided this lazy attack is damning and keep waving it around like a cudgel since I happened to agree with someone - ONE PERSON in ONE POST - in the Healer forum that you thought was a troll and you've become an absolute jerk to me over it. Cool off.

I see absolutely no appeal in purposely leaving Holy as button-bloat in single-target situations. There's nothing wrong with making it a situational/infrequent ST-GCD-#4.

(Personally, I love when utility sees overlap, like Rockbreaker often being the only way to keep up GL3 all the way to meteors in T9/T9S, or Sonic Thrust being useful for uptime and BotD/LotD on Neo Exdeath. It's often best that certain situations do exclude certain actions of shared opportunity cost, but never categorically; having Glare lack even an infrequent use in AoE or Holy even an infrequent use in ST just seems wasteful.)

Imagine ARR through Stormblood BLM, for instance, if Flare were purposely made useless in single-target. Just... why? Bonus damage to primary target / (higher base damage and) reduced damage to later victims is enough to deal with tuning implications.

Agreed, and that was kind of my point with the proposal. I'd like to see more efficient use of existing buttons, not adding buttons "just because" when we have extant buttons that we're just never using (in single-target, which is the bulk of the game/bosses, at least in theory) that could fill in that gap instead.

...But, (A) what do you mean by "stacks" here (and are they applied to the ability? the healing recipient?) and (B) why would that be necessary?

I could be wrong, but I think it means like WHM in PvP.

Pre-EW, it had Cure 1 cost no MP and you could spam it indefinitely (I rather liked that as a "filler"; healer smamnukefiller damage is garbage in PvP and almost never actually gets kills) and Cure 2 that cost 1k MP so you were limited in its use since it would burn through your MP quickly. Post-EW, it was changed to Cure 2 only, with it having 2 charges.

I don't agree with the idea, but I think that's the idea.

It’s literally the same conversation people have been having since the game began (don’t think I don’t remember people asking for more dps buttons during Stormblood lol), but as I said before:
...Sylphies are not ruining the game by wanting to heal more. Green dps are not ruining the game by wanting to dps more.

And this is why I believe the best way forward is the "4 Healers Model", since it means "Green DPS" have healer Jobs they can play, "Sylphies" (that don't even exist, but whatever) have a healer Job they can play, and there'll probably be one somewhere in the middle for people that want something somewhere in the middle.

It's really the only answer that addresses everyone's needs in at least a passable way.

I do disagree with "damage feeding into healing/vice verse". I think that some Jobs can and should be made that way (SGE is), but not all of them. DIVERSITY is the solution, not trading one form of homogeneity for another. Especially as it still doesn't address the problem of people wanting to play healers to heal. Imagine if all the DPS Jobs in the game had to use a heal on someone before they could use their big attacks. BLM has to use a Cure 1 equivalent on someone, and it can't overheal, before they can use Xenoglossy. SAM must use a Physic equivalent on someone, and it can't overheal, before they can use Iaijutsu.

That would go over like a lead balloon.

So the idea that healers must damage before being able to heal or to access some of their heals just seems counter to understanding, on a basic level, a lot of people play healers because they DON'T ENJOY dpsing. If they did enjoy dpsing, they'd probably be playing a DPS or one of the hybrids like DNC or RDM or SMN.

But, again, "4 Healers Model" is all about the concept of diversity; so some healers functioning that way BUT SOME NOT is the ideal solution. And that is a hill I will die on.

Anyway, good post, thank you, sir.

Healer gameplay should revolve around HEALING, not DPSING.
Asking healers to be more like dps..is like asking healers to become DPS..
Why play healer..when in truth you wanna dps ?.


Instead:
Let healers use their whole HEALER toolkit ! LET US USE OUR HEALS!!
I dont want to press x more meaningless/worthless dps buttons..

Downtime wouldnt exist if SE
actually could make fights depended on healing:

- More dmg during fights ( dot dmg/dispel-mech)
- More random unavoidable dmg..
- Remove self-heal/ress from other roles..

Instead of putting all that energy into asking for x more dps button.
How about fighting to get actually healer gameplay into picture instead!
People who enjoy healing.. do so because they enjoy the healing aspect of it..
not the **** 3 dps buttons we have!..


I said my piece..
not gonna reply anyone
or argue about it.

100% agree. This is the post to /thread

And honestly, I think I should take a que from you:

I've said my peace, and people want to be bullies to get me to shut up and just take it are tiring. I'm done dealing with people who just want to be dicks because they got butthurt that I wouldn't agree with them, especially when I've offered the most compromise solution possible, and have even compromised on the details of it no less than 8 iterations from the original proposal, yet it will never be good enough because they don't want to compromise. They want to get everything they want and screw anyone who doesn't like it, and bully anyone who dares oppose them getting everything they want.

Wanting to heal in a game with a healer role isn't a crime. Wanting minimal dps in a game where DPS is a role but the player has selected a different role specifically to avoid it also isn't a crime. And wanting a compromise where both sides can coexist side by side isn't a crime, either.

[OgruMogru]

...Why this, especially the bolded part?

Yes, those not already Medica II spamming could have a near-identical later-game GCD experience after removing MP (and, presumably, removing Lucid Dreaming Cure, Physick, and Benefic while revamping Diagnosis and nerfing GCD AoE heals), since you scarcely used them anyways...

...But, (A) what do you mean by "stacks" here (and are they applied to the ability? the healing recipient?) and (B) why would that be necessary?

I probably shouldn't have said "all" I was worried if I didn't specify or used the word skill instead of ability someone would be facetious about my terminology. I was thinking about how sharp and triplecast function currently where you can hold a certain number of uses and they recharge overtime. This would stop people only spamming heals or only spamming dps skills and also take pressure off of people who struggle with resource management. Like you said people that already don't spam medica2 [or equivalent] would functionally be having the same experience but as mentioned above if they're worried about mp management being another thing for healers to worry about then removing it and just having each [or certain] skills having a number of uses before they go on cooldown eliminates the MP pressure.

[Sebazy]

100% agree..

Is this a 100% agree where you don't actually 100% agree but are trying to kiss up for forum points or is this actually a 100% agree? I can't keep up anymore

[SaberMaxwell]

Honestly there's a part of me that hopes they keep going down this path for healers, in a "I want to see the world burn" sense. Strip all damage from them, make it strictly healing, make the healing God Kefka+ tier in every fight savage and above. Really rock the world of heal only healers. Or don't at all, leave it be completely while nipping what little downtime mechanics the role has left. I wonder which would extinct the role faster in high end content...

[AmiableApkallu]

And this is why I believe the best way forward is the "4 Healers Model", since it means "Green DPS" have healer Jobs they can play, "Sylphies" (that don't even exist, but whatever) have a healer Job they can play, and there'll probably be one somewhere in the middle for people that want something somewhere in the middle.

It's really the only answer that addresses everyone's needs in at least a passable way.

The problem -- or at the least, my problem -- with your "4 Healers Model" is, in short: the fact that Black Mage exists. Let me unpack what I mean by that.

Black Mage is known as the "complex" caster, with a sky high skill ceiling. This comes from the existence of a library of "transpose lines" that challenge even the best amongst us.

However, Black Mage also has a simple, straightforward rotation that you can stumble your way into if you give the job any amount of thought. That rotation still lets you perform at a high level, so much so that the advice for improving your performance is to start with mastering the basics, not to worry about all those transpose lines. You won't be prevented from clearing content if you go with this rotation.

Now, if even that "simple" rotation is too much for you, and you still want to get through the story, you can muddle your way through solo content (Very Easy mode exists, yes?), somehow, and then for group content, just go Blizzard-Fire-Blizzard-Fire.

The point is that within a single job, we have a healthy gap between the skill ceiling and the skill floor, with a passable option if the skill floor is too high and you just want to get through the story. If you favor the Black Mage aesthetic, the pointy yellow hat and blue robes (and things going "boom"), then by all means, you are welcome to play the job and select between "simple" and "complex" rotations.

Why must we categorically reject that approach for WHM? Or for any of the four healers? Why can we not choose a healer based on our favorite aesthetic and have a similar healthy gap between the skill ceiling and skill floor?

To be clear, I don't want a skill floor that's as high as Black Mage's (the current healer skill floor is just fine /two cents), but I do want that gap between the floor and ceiling.

[Supersnow845]

Ren if you are going to post something on the forums then go “I’m not gonna reply to anything about this” then you obviously have little to no faith you can defend your reasoning if someone asks you to defend it, at least you try to defend your points which is why I still occasionally interact with you even if it’s begrudgingly half the time

And isn’t it interesting that me calling them out for not defending their opinions is not fair right before you 100% agree with them on the point they make, I’m sure if they are confident in their opinions they can defend them themselves, which is funny because I don’t necessarily fully disagree with them (but you like to imply I did), Sebazy has already ripped apart how the mantra wouldn’t work even considering the hardest fight to heal in the game (O8SP2) but there is a grain of truth to the original idea (in that if you made me choose between current healing and coils healing I would choose coils healing and it wouldn’t even be a remotely hard decision)

Regardless I’ll call people out for outright stating their intention to not defend their position no matter what “side” they are on