T/H/D/D vs T/3DPS - By the numbers

[Renathras]

It woudn't matter if its oGCDs or GCDs,

It does if we're talking about the boredom of spamming a single button. People don't register oGCDs (except AST Draw/Play) as actions that break up their DPS rotation 1111 spam. So in that sense, using GCD heals instead is relevant.

Suppose, for the sake of argument, all oGCD heals were turned into GCD heals (instant cast, say) tomorrow. That wouldn't change the healing required. That wouldn't change the number of DPS actions. But it would directly change the number of Nukespam casts directly. For example, the top TOP group right now has a WHM that used 82 oGCD heals/abilities (if I'm counting right - I'm trying to use the casts since some things hit multiple targets, but I'm just looking at the casts; I think the 5 from Liturgy were canceling it early for the healing vs the 13 total times it was cast as opposed to the 13 being the wave hits). By comparison, using 42 Rapture, 7 Solace, 18 Misery, 28 Dia, and 294 Glare over an 18 min 39 sec fight. Just this one change alone would cut out 27% of Glare casts. The party's SGE used 72 oGCDs. vs the 249 Dosis casts, that's just under a 29% reduction in Dosis casts if those abilities were GCDs that had to be substituted in the rotation.

That is, if oGCDs were made into GCDs and used as frequently as they are now (there is A LOT of nuance that would go into such a change, so I suspect the numbers would not be exact, but this is more giving a ballpark estimate of what that change would do to your GCD rotation if you still needed to project that level of healing/mitigation), that alone would be greater than 25% reduction in the 111 spam, which would be pretty significant. With the standard 2.5 sec GCD, and ignoring that a few GCDs in those fights were heals, Afflatus abilities, and the players' DoTs, there are 24 casts in a minute, meaning 6 replacements. In reality, Glare is used less than that, as is Dosis (due to Plegma, Eukrasia Dosis, and so on existing), so 6 less Glare/Dosis per minute would be even more pronounced.

I'm not saying this as a proposal, mind you, just noting that them being oGCDs vs GCDs heavily changes how people view the abilities and healing needs of the game, as well as changes how people perceive it breaking up the 1111 spam, since oGCDs do not do so as they can all be weaved (no spamnuke has a cast time greater than 1.5 sec.)

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As for the rest...

1) It matters if it's 10 minutes or 100 minutes over the course of a 7 day week. You're talking about it saving players time. HOW MUCH TIME THAT IS is relevant. % terms kind of overstate it because "It saves 20%!" seems huge, until you realize that 20% is...2 minutes. That basically is saving you one bathroom break's worth of time, if even that. If you're running 10 in a day, you're not saving time, you're costing time. It would be a bigger time SAVER to just do a standard party DF run once per day for 5 days. You're literally arguing about the best way to efficiently BE INEFFICIENT. And even in that case, I outright compared the times that way as well (the 100 minutes that I talked about). It's a bad argument that I debunked already. It's kind of like saying "I saved 20% on this purchase!" Well, was that 20% of a $30,000 car or 20% of a $3.00 candy bag? They're both 20%, but clearly one of them is going to be seen by most people as negligible. Saving 60 cents on a candy bag isn't very substantial to most people, while saving $6,000.00 on a car kind of IS substantial to most people.

2) This is still the top/fastest runs you're looking at, not the average runs, which may not be saving even that much time.

3) I WAS honest about it, which is why I made the Edit note in the FIRST place. Because it's such a detracting issue, I've gone and changed it again. As I've noted, it isn't significant, but since that's such a sticking point, I've already corrected it BEFORE your post here.

4) You're countering the PARTY average by looking at single Jobs and making several assumptions to support it. Maybe find the average run times FOR PARTIES and use that instead?

5) Skipping mechanics IN NORMAL 4 MAN DUNGEONS? We're not talking skipping a body check in a Savage here.

6) The difference is negligible. Go out into the community - without bias or tilt in your wording - and ask them if saving 2 minutes on a dungeon run per day sounds like a lot of time saved to them. I think we both know the answer would be "That doesn't sound like a lot of time, no". If you do 4 dungeons a day, we're likely talking different things than Expert Roulette (and as people have said, older content runs can be harder, not to mention take longer - Ala Mhigo is pretty famous for wiping parties even WITH Healers in them). Further, why are you running 4 dungeons a day 7 days in a week? Your Tomes are caped at, at most, 10 Expert runs. Why would you run 18 more once you're capped? If you're talking running old content to farm glam, I doubt there's a good argument for that even being part of the conversation, but if it somehow was, we'd have to look at the speedruns vs nominal runs for those dungeons to account for differences. Even just looking at the EW dungeons, we have cases where you're saving 2 mins and others where you're saving 3 or 1-something. Not to mention if we're talking old content, we're talking unsynced runs (since chests still drop), at which point you don't even need a Tank and could just do all DPS runs, but even so, since things simply vaporize as soon as you look at them (WHM/SCH can 3 GCD shot most of the bosses in the level 50 dungeons, less if you get a crit, even AST can do this), you're really not saving much time at all at that point since you can solo the things and the real time waste is walking speed. At that point, you'd save more time with SCH Expedience/Ranged Pelaton.

[WaxSw]

GCDs

The problem with the GCDs is that they are as tasteless as the dps nuke, only Whm has in its afflatus heals a GCD that somewhat interacts with its kit, you can change a dps spell for a gcd but it wont make it much better because those GCDs does not offer any kind of depth, interactions, job knowledge, etc...

Ultimate number lol

...You're bringing up a ultimate, a fight with over 15m length, that has multiple phases where healing is necessary and you can't damage the boss, that has multiple sets of downtime and has healing requirements 8-13x times more than a dungeon to a discussion about dungeons. If you can't see how those two can't be compared and the difference between the healing aproach in both I honestly don't know what to tell you

Worst is that you could only remove 20% of the nuke spam under that context, imagine how little that percentage would become in savage and below where the problem is at its highest.

1) You can spin it the way you want but its a relevant difference that you were handwaving

2) As I've told you, there are no evidence that supports that this difference would be smaller at the average level of play, in fact rough estimations seem to indicate the opposite

3)The % are still wrong the lowest was 13%, the highest 22% and you've had plenty of time to change it since it was indicated

4)If you do that you introduce variables like party comp, strat and patch in which those runs were made reducing the precission by a lot and it was a rough estimation as I said, by simply looking at the jobs in a vacuum you can establish a proportionality between them, if that were to change significantly between a top and an average run that would suggest that the difference between a 1T3DPS and a Standard performance changes in a significant way, it doesn't so if anything the estimation says there is no change in proportionality between a top and an average run as the most used dps is still worth the same amount of highest damage healer

5)Yes, yes it is, in fact if you analyze the logs that you did not open at the beggining you'll see how the bosses don't cast attacks that they do in normal runs, that is because they are dead before they can do it

6)This is a fallacy, we were talking about efficiency and numbers, idc what you think the commmunity wants (besides, no proof again), your initial thesis was wrong as well as the subsequent ones, stop moving goalposts and accept it.

[Rilifane]

The problem with the GCDs is that they are as tasteless as the dps nuke, only Whm has in its afflatus heals a GCD that somewhat interacts with its kit, you can change a dps spell for a gcd but it wont make it much better because those GCDs does not offer any kind of depth, interactions, job knowledge, etc...

Since my sub ran out about 2 weeks ago today is probably the last day I can post anything before I get yeeted from the forum.

I just want to stress how important this part here is and why encounter design alone is not the problem.
It contributes to the problem, yes. But it is not THE problem and treating it as the root cause of all evil is just handwaving a lot of issues away.

There are two simple facts:

1. you cannot increase the required healing in all content to a point where a veteran would be constantly engaged with healing itself by going through their entire toolkit (including GCD heals) on a regular basis without a very high risk of negatively affecting non-veteran healers.
   We're talking about making us push 15k-20k or even more HPS on a regular basis. Below 15k you don't even need to touch GCD heals.
   WoW can easily get away with cranking up the damage to 11 in M+, LFR/ normal/ heroic/ mythic because none of it is mandatory for story but they also have a much better downtime kit
2. both the healing and the dps side of all healer toolkits are bland, lack interaction and opportunities for skill expression and using your job knowledge - the majority of them are copy&pasted flat single target or aoe heals with very few nuances in practice and almost no interaction which means trading a Broil for a Succor isn't much better, as Wax said.

Besides, solo content exists. Even if every dungeon boss sudeenly had NA1/2, lots of bleedwides, Dominion, Tumults, Terminal etc. added - what about MSQ solo duties, fates, treasure maps and overworld encounters in general?