T/H/D/D vs T/3DPS - By the numbers

[RyuDragnier]

Saving this for future use.

[Renathras]

I know the above is in jest...

This, and a fair point. It's a weird glitch that I'm now wondering if it extends to other things, such as single Healer 8 mans. If it only activates with two of the same Job (there seem to be a lot of BLM/BLM cases) or what. And why it randomly selects from the Healer Jobs, so there doesn't actually seem to be any consistency to it that would expose it from a surface level.

Using Lapis Manalis, it seems the difference is between 10 and some change minutes vs just over 12, so around a 20% difference, give or take. This may be different in different dungeons, but the older ones can also be more outgeared, so using the most current one is probably best for the results (not to mention only the two most recent will turn up in Expert)

I'd still say it just feels bad to play a job that's only included because the duty finder requires it for matched parties, and that people are all too happy to drop the moment a coded system isn't enforcing it.

I'm not sure the latter part is true. Healers are kind of like having an insurance policy, not everyone wants them, but a lot of people like having them around, even if they don't actually need them. Healers incur a slightly slower speed for considerable added security. Whether that's something desired is up to the individual. It's similar to the argument of people taking a BLM or a SMN in an 8 man group for their Caster slot. Sometimes a random bad luck will happen and both Healers go down. If the party has that SMN (or RDM), the might be doing a good enough run to still get the clear, but obviously they have to reset and start over if they have a BLM. It's kind of how much security you want.

I don't think it's accurate to say "people are all to happy to drop the moment" that they aren't forced to do it. The amount of people that make full T/3D premade runs is pretty small compared to the people that just que into DF or use a normal T/H/2D comp, even with their premades. I think it's fair to say that some people want to drop it when allowed, but I think it's easy to overestimate how many are actually doing so.

And as Fulminating says, I've also had to tank on a Healer before while picking up bodies - something I couldn't have done if on a general DPS Job.

[Iedarus]

This has happened to me time and time again: As soon as your tank knows what they are doing, you just don't exist. Heals? The tank can keep themself up while pulling w2w effortlessly. "Alright, good pull! Now I'm gonna use Sacred Soil so you do-oh, they have yet to even put a dent in your health bar...ah well, Energy Drain spam it is, then." At least it means when I play tank I actually know I'm the most important role in the game.

[ASkellington]

I don't think it's accurate to say "people are all to happy to drop the moment" that they aren't forced to do it. The amount of people that make full T/3D premade runs is pretty small compared to the people that just que into DF or use a normal T/H/2D comp, even with their premades. I think it's fair to say that some people want to drop it when allowed, but I think it's easy to overestimate how many are actually doing so.

I disagree with this. Part of why I stopped playing ESO was because you could do this. Yeah, DF forces you into playing the healer role like it does here, but you best believe if you could queue DF without the limitation of a healer, people would do so. Much like here, most dungeons players interact with don't need a healer. There's enough self healing in the game to not require it and much like DNC and RDM can here, a magica DPS can just slot a few healing spells either from their class or ones that aren't connected to the restoration staff line and be just fine. (you can also do it with tanks btw)

[Renathras]

I disagree with this. Part of why I stopped playing ESO was because you could do this. Yeah, DF forces you into playing the healer role like it does here, but you best believe if you could queue DF without the limitation of a healer, people would do so. Much like here, most dungeons players interact with don't need a healer. There's enough self healing in the game to not require it and much like DNC and RDM can here, a magica DPS can just slot a few healing spells either from their class or ones that aren't connected to the restoration staff line and be just fine. (you can also do it with tanks btw)

Yeah, but what I mean is, I don't even think it's that. Most people aren't trying to hyperoptimize in this game. If someone's doing a daily Expert for 90 tomes, they don't care if it takes 15 mins or so. They aren't putting together a speed running group to cut off 3-5 minutes. Most people want the easiest path, and that's DF, not PF. The difference also isn't huge. The log speed runs are probably pretty coordinated parties, not the "average player" experience/output. Me personally, I don't feel comfortable Tanking without a Healer, and I think people VASTLY understate the damage Tanks take because the specific case of WAR and Bloodletting make it seem like it's universal, but even most of the speed runs (as someone else in here said) use a WAR for the Tank, meaning it's a much more isolated issue than it might otherwise appear.

But the point holds that people are probably overestimating how many people are actually doing this. Even when I have FC only runs of Experts, people always form a T/H/D/D party. No one's ever asked for a T/3D party in my FC. I'm sure it happens with people, but again, I think it's much less prevalent than people make it out to be. Which is true of MOST of the Healer-related topics in this game (e.g. 1 Healer Ultimates has a similar problem of people vastly overstating what is barely possible, and is only possible when RNG perfectly lines up, every player in the team makes no mistakes and are willing to dedicate hours to getting that perfect RNG, and where only one Healer Job seems able to even do it.)

[ASkellington]

Yeah, but what I mean is, I don't even think it's that. Most people aren't trying to hyperoptimize in this game. If someone's doing a daily Expert for 90 tomes, they don't care if it takes 15 mins or so. They aren't putting together a speed running group to cut off 3-5 minutes. Most people want the easiest path, and that's DF, not PF. The difference also isn't huge. The log speed runs are probably pretty coordinated parties, not the "average player" experience/output. Me personally, I don't feel comfortable Tanking without a Healer, and I think people VASTLY understate the damage Tanks take because the specific case of WAR and Bloodletting make it seem like it's universal, but even most of the speed runs (as someone else in here said) use a WAR for the Tank, meaning it's a much more isolated issue than it might otherwise appear.

But the point holds that people are probably overestimating how many people are actually doing this. Even when I have FC only runs of Experts, people always form a T/H/D/D party. No one's ever asked for a T/3D party in my FC. I'm sure it happens with people, but again, I think it's much less prevalent than people make it out to be. Which is true of MOST of the Healer-related topics in this game (e.g. 1 Healer Ultimates has a similar problem of people vastly overstating what is barely possible, and is only possible when RNG perfectly lines up, every player in the team makes no mistakes and are willing to dedicate hours to getting that perfect RNG, and where only one Healer Job seems able to even do it.)

My problem is that it shouldn't be possible. And honestly the only reason why dungeons I think are an issue is because of W2W. Bosses in this game are 100% soloable by tanks with the healing they have and that's... dumb.

Savage and Ultimate are even more egregious. The hardest content in the game made for a group of 8 players, 2 tanks and 2 healers can be completed without 2 healers? Really. That's OK SE? That's the issue with 1T/3DPS. That its even possible to begin with. There should be healer mechanics, of that we all agree, and there are, but not enough to ACTUALLY need a healer.

[Semirhage]

Considering how easy it is to not need a healer in dungeons, it means that when you do roll into one, chances are you aren't going to need to heal much if at all. The few times in the last two expansions I could stomach dropping into roulette as a healer so I could get tomestone farming dailies over with, it was the case a good 9 times out of 10. You just spend the entire dungeon run pressing one button. Over and over again. Occasionally refreshing a DOT. Occasionally swapping the one button spam with the one AOE button spam. Not even really needing to oGCD heal. Just Broil Broil Broil Broil Broil Broil. Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare. God FF14 healers are the most horrifically designed classes I've ever seen in an MMO.

[Renathras]

...

Honestly, I don't think this is inherently a problem. In some MMOs, you can forego a Tank if you have excellent CC or kiting skills. It being possible to do a causal 4 man dungeon without a Healer (again, you can also do them without Tanks or without DPS) isn't really a problem on its own. To do a T/3D run you have to have good DPSers or the Tank will run out of CDs (and contrary to popular belief, they do, in fact, take damage that can kill them), and you have to have a Tank that doesn't just blow the whole kitchen sink and then have no defensives to use after that 15 sec of near invulnerability.

Likewise, if a party with the perfect comp, doing mechanics flawlessly, with the perfect rotation, can do a single Healer run after hours of trying to get the right RNG while also maintaining perfect or near-perfect performances and only with a specific Healer Job and specific party composition that allows for this, I don't think that's an issue either. It's like saying people shouldn't be able to solo PotD.

T/3D isn't at all part of the problem. I also disagree that there isn't enough healing needed. I think the issue is more that too many non-Healer Jobs have lots of healing. I don't know who you guys run with, but in my DF Expert roulettes, I HAVE to heal the Tank and DPS party members. They die to raidwides from bosses in Manalis if they aren't tended to. I'm not sure what content you're running where people don't take damage and don't die if not healed.

EDIT:

God FF14 healers are the most horrifically designed classes I've ever seen in an MMO.

That's not Healer design, though, that's encounter design......also Tank design, but that's still the same issue, just the other side of it.

[ASkellington]

Honestly, I don't think this is inherently a problem. In some MMOs, you can forego a Tank if you have excellent CC or kiting skills. It being possible to do a causal 4 man dungeon without a Healer (again, you can also do them without Tanks or without DPS) isn't really a problem on its own. To do a T/3D run you have to have good DPSers or the Tank will run out of CDs (and contrary to popular belief, they do, in fact, take damage that can kill them), and you have to have a Tank that doesn't just blow the whole kitchen sink and then have no defensives to use after that 15 sec of near invulnerability.

Likewise, if a party with the perfect comp, doing mechanics flawlessly, with the perfect rotation, can do a single Healer run after hours of trying to get the right RNG while also maintaining perfect or near-perfect performances and only with a specific Healer Job and specific party composition that allows for this, I don't think that's an issue either. It's like saying people shouldn't be able to solo PotD.

T/3D isn't at all part of the problem. I also disagree that there isn't enough healing needed. I think the issue is more that too many non-Healer Jobs have lots of healing. I don't know who you guys run with, but in my DF Expert roulettes, I HAVE to heal the Tank and DPS party members. They die to raidwides from bosses in Manalis if they aren't tended to. I'm not sure what content you're running where people don't take damage and don't die if not healed.

You could take all the self heals away and it wouldn't do much aside from make tanks upset.

Plenty of dungeons I've ran there has been an AOE that I don't need to heal because they don't even do half damage. By the time the next unavoidable damage occurs I can press a button, they're up to full and nothing has changed. Tanks are worse. Unless they stand in bad I only need to pop CI or Exal on a tank buster (some times not even that) and they're fine. The "worst" I ever have to do is pop a regen on them. Bosses are a joke to heal in this game.

W2Ws are the only interesting parts of a dungeon because I actually use my entire bloated kit. If dungeon bosses were more like that we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Same can be said in raids and trials. The last few have been interesting to heal, and more of what I'd like to see, but nothing to really be happy about. Its "more of that but better and for things other than raids and trials already".

[Sebazy]

I'm not sure the latter part is true. Healers are kind of like having an insurance policy, not everyone wants them, but a lot of people like having them around, even if they don't actually need them.

IMO you're actually rather incorrect on this one, but the reason why is a little complex.

Go back to early ARR when the go to method for tomes was grinding WP. My FC would run PLD/BLM/WHM/WHM teams as they were the fastest way to chew through the dungeon up until the trick of walling off trash with boss barriers was discovered. In various trials it was also common place to ignore the recommended comp and simply go with a single tank or healer as required.

For dungeons, this stopped being a regular thing outside of speed runs because frankly, there's very little reason to grind dungeons like that anymore. Have a look through recent uploads for a specific dungeon and you won't find people grinding them, you'll just see people doing their daily roulettes because that's all anyone really needs. It's not the safety blanket of having a healer along for the ride that keeps the average static member bringing their healer along, it's the bonus times from that roulette entry point.

It was the same thing with single healer savage and coil clears. Once my teams had Coil/Savage on farm is was pretty common for my co healer to switch to a DPS for the earlier floors to speed things up. Even in the dread Gordias, we had a raid where my co-healer couldn't make the start of raid, he didn't need the gear so we just started clearing without him. The logs site blocking non 2/2/4 comps from appearing on front page rankings stopped that trend dead.

That's not Healer design, though, that's encounter design......also Tank design, but that's still the same issue, just the other side of it.

A Jet is a beautiful design for soaring through the sky.

Just need to trundle through town though? It's pretty damn terrible for that

Healers as they are don't fit in the context of the game environment they run in for the most part and don't make sense until you hit Savage as a minimum. In that regard, they are badly designed and lacking.

*edit*

Perhaps a better analogy would be having a beautiful set of handcrafted steak knives but all you've got to eat is a pot noodle