T/H/D/D vs T/3DPS - By the numbers

[Sebazy]

Depends on the Healer. Doing solo PotD/HoH runs

Ok cool, that's one specific niche bit of side content. Now what about actual solo content. You know, MSQ, solo duties, solo fate farming?

Healers having more DPS buttons wouldn't change T/3D runs of 4 mans being faster. It wouldn't change Ultimates being solo-healed. So how is that a true "solution" when it, at best, only masks the problem, and at worst, doesn't even mask the problem? If you aren't being taken to 4 mans with the DPS buttons you have now, why WOULD you be taken with more DPS buttons? If you're being benched to solo heal 8 mans now, why would having more DPS buttons fix that? You'd still be doing less DPS than a DPS Job, meaning people would still be benching you/going in 4 man premades without you, yes?

Because at least I won't be so bored stiff doing casual content on my healer. I honestly don't care if non standard comps are viable, I don't care if they are better, I personally don't even really care people can do Extremes without any healers at all. By all rights I'm part of the problem as I was all for this kind of wild experimental stuff in previous MMOs and I've been all for it here too - Case in point : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5TDzbqfEAo from over 9 years ago.

Where the problem starts for me is when I'm clamouring to get off the healer not because I want to experiment or because it might be 20% faster for some dungeon. But rather because the role I've enjoyed playing for over 20 years has been reduced to this level of monotony.

Pps you're still sidestepping how you got to 5-15%.

[Renathras]

Ok cool, that's one specific niche bit of side content. Now what about actual solo content. You know, MSQ, solo duties, solo fate farming?

The reason I mentioned PotD/HoH is that's the only time it's long enough to be noticeable since I'm doing the same thing for 30 mins. In other words, that's where the monotony argument would be the most prevalent.

In general solo content? I've never been bored on a Healer. I find it interesting and engaging because I'm usually focused on the encounter and story events going on, so I don't actually notice button presses at all. So in terms of MSQ and solo duties, I find Healers as fun as anything else, which is "very". I tend not to do much FATE farming (I use FATEs to level DPS Jobs sometimes because ques are longer on them, but don't find I need to do that with Healers), but I enjoyed doing Bozja and Eureka FATEs on Healers, I preferred doing ARR Relic Fates on WHM and SCH over doing them on SMN and PLD (did SCH/SMN and PLD during ShB) since it's easier to not die on the solo ones and easier to protect the NPCs on the ones like "Surprise!" north of Bronze Lake.

So I don't do it much, but when I do it on Healer Jobs, I enjoy FATE farming on them, honestly. It is pretty chill and relaxing. I do remember leveling WHM from 88-90 in Tempest and enjoyed that.

Because at least I won't be so bored stiff doing casual content on my healer.

Well, good for you, but you weren't the person I was asking the question of. These are more the comments I'm referring to:

My problem is that it shouldn't be possible.

I fully agree that it shouldn't be possible, let alone be more efficient.

And you've been around this forum long enough to know it happens more frequently and is often used for a reason of why Healers aren't working/designed right, even in this thread.

But the thing I'm pointing out is "more DPS buttons" won't fix that unless Healers also do substantially more DAMAGE (at least as much as Tanks) to make them at least as attractive as Tanks to bring to runs. It won't make Healers necessary for content and won't prevent people dropping them - all identified as problems.

What is your solution FOR THOSE PROBLEMS?

Pps you're still sidestepping how you got to 5-15%.

No, I already said it. 10% +/- 5%. I think it should be 15% +/- 5%, but it was just a quick calculation. So you know, if you catch someone on a technicality and hammer it over and over (ignoring whether it's actually meaningful - as I've pointed out, it really isn't), and especially if you're trying to discredit them overall (you likely aren't, but other people hammering the point are), that's not a good point or something worth doing. This is like the 5th time someone's asked, and I already answered the reasoning behind it. You guys can keep asking over and over, and I'll keep saying the same thing, "rough/quick in head calculation to get a ballpark estimate + 2 minutes is negligible in terms of the total amount of time that is saved overall (the weekly cap still exists) + that's only comparing the top times not average times, so not even relevant for general analysis". I can just copy that into a .txt to paste over and over every time the question is asked, if you guys prefer, or you could just move on to discussing the actual topics of the thread, I don't care which.

Notice whenever I catch someone in something like that, I only point it out and then move on. If someone acknowledges the error AT ALL, I don't hammer it, and often complement them for doing so. Roe made a mistake in Ty's General survey thread. Notice how I didn't bring it up over and over in every post to use as a rhetorical cudgel? Because in addition to being annoying and kind of a dick move, it doesn't actually support any argument nor does it defeat her other arguments. I said everyone makes mistakes, praised her for being open about it, and then went back to discussing the topic after a genuine /hug.

That's the mature way to deal with things like that, not incessant hammering to try and make someone look bad for making a minor mistake, especially one that isn't consequential. And I explained WHY it's not consequential, and no one yet has argued that 10 minutes in a week is a substantial amount of time that we should be concerned about, nor has anyone offered a rebuttal to how we should be using average times, not best times, anyway.

THIS, though:

because the role I've enjoyed playing for over 20 years has been reduced to this level of monotony.

...is what's worth discussing more. Though I doubt your answer would be the same as mine.

My answer would be "encounter damage has decreased (compared to our healing toolkit, defense values, HP pools, and even natural healing), and oGCDs have increased in power and availability (making healing GCDs unnecessary and even most healing needs relatively trivial to address with the push of a button)". Your answer would likely be more along the lines of "because they removed Aero 3", yes? (If you play SCH, there's more to it, but if we're talking WHM, there's not). But I think it's undeniable encounter design has changed, and is at least PART of the reason for the problem.

As I've noted before WHM's DPS cadence now is roughly in the same place as it was in SB. Remember that thread where I showed WHM has more non-Glare GCDs per minute now than it had non-Stone GCDs in SB? I'm sure I could find it again if you like. Though as I pointed out there, SCH's is far, far more Broil heavy than it was then, largely owing to Broil itself having a 1.5 sec cast time (rendering Ruin 2 obsolete) and the removal of Misama (most of the other DPS tools removed were oGCDs, not GCDs, such as Bane and Shadow Flare.)

Here, I'll go ahead and post it:

In practice, SB WHM cast Aero 2 3.333... times per minute and Aero 3 2.5 times per minute. This is a total of 5.833... GCD casts per minute that weren't Stone IV.

In practice, EW WHM casts Dia 2 times per minute, 3 Afflatus (Solace/Rapture) per minute, and 1 Afflatus Misery per minute. This is a total of 6 GCD casts per minute that aren't Glare III.

On balance, EW WHM is casting non-Glare damage (or damage-adjacent Solace/Rapture) spells on roughly the same average frequency as SB era WHM did.

The real difference, honestly, is on the HEALING side, where a proliferation of oGCD heals (even on WHM) and the healing done by Afflatus heals can largely push non-Afflatus GCD heals off of average use, resulting in more Glare casts. Afflatus spells are, of course, being cast, but as noted, these can be thought of as part of the DPS rotation equivalent to the lost Aero 2 and 3 casts, so the foregone casts are Medica, Medica 2, Cure 2, Cure 3, and Regens, resulting in more "dead" GCDs that are filled with Glare.

Bio II had the same cadence as Biolysis today, so we can consider that in parity. 30 sec duration vs 30 sec duration, nothing really to discuss. The big changes (to the GCD cadence) were the following:

Miasma 2.5 casts per minute were removed.

Ruin II at least 1 cast per minute was removed (I say "at least" since even with 2x natural Bio II refreshes for AF oGCD weaves, you'd need one more. Remember that Broil at this time did not allow weaving without clipping. It would be more than 1 per minute if you were needing to weave more things). Ruin II was also niche useful as a MP management tool owing to the lower MP cost vs Broil III, something that is not shared with EW's Ruin II vs Broil IV. "At least" 1 is due to needing to burn at least 3 AFs per minute (for Faerie Gauge - lol - if nothing else, and obviously burning with ED since you don't want to leave that potency on the table), though this could be higher depending on whether or not you were able to use natural Bio II refreshes for oGCD weaves and that SCH also has a lot of OTHER oGCD weaves besides just AF.

Miasma II was a single target loss against Broil III and only situational as a replacement for Ruin II for movement or weaves. So we can say it's here, but it kind of also wasn't EXACTLY part of the GCD cadence and is more properly looked at, in a general sense, as a wonky version of Art of War. Still, you could trade that "at least 1 cast per minute" from Ruin 2 down here for hyper-optimization. The MP cost was so prohibitive that this would often be passed up for Ruin II anyway.

...short list, but actually more significant than it seems. As I noted above, unlike WHM, there were no replacements for these "at least" 3.5 GCDs per minute, so they were shunted to additional Broil casts. Broil IV allowing oGCD weaves also removed Ruin II/Miasma II's use in single target situations away from being optimal parts of the rotation and an MP management tool for Ruin 2 into being situational for heavy movement (in the case of Ruin 2) or high levels of oGCD weave needs, and in the case of Miasma II, being shunted to a strictly AOE role in the form of Art of War. So while "at least" 3.5 stands, in practice, it was probably closer to 6 assuming weaving 2-3 oGCDs per minute.

Note that this is largely an EW change, not a ShB one, since using Ruin II for oGCD weaves was still commonplace in ShB due to Broil's longer cast time. Broil's shorter cast time today is what really changed things for SCH honestly more than anything else, since Miasma I's removal aside, it altered how many Ruin IIs were used in the standard/general rotation for BOTH weaving AND movement - a 1.5 sec Broil IV allows for a lot more slidecasting, which can handle all but the longest distance and longest duration movements.

Unlike WHM, which filled those "dead" GCDs with 2.66... Afflatus abilities in ShB and now 4 in EW, SCH not only replaced the missing 2.5 Miasma casts with Broil IV, but it also replace a lot of the situational Ruin II and Miasma II casts with Broil IV, compounding the problem even more. And unlike WHM, which got better from ShB to EW, SCH actually GOT WORSE.

...

The actual issue seems to be the removal of Miasma, Miasma 2/Art of War no longer having any use (even situational) in single target fights, and Ruin 2 having a MUCH reduced presence with Broil's shorter cast time.

oGCDs don't affect GCD cadence (for obvious reasons), and since collectively everyone discounts oGCDs (no one counts Assize or using Tetra as "breaking up Glarespam", so the only time ED or the like should count is if Broil has to be substituted with Ruin 2/Miasma 2 to cast them; that substitution is the actual break in the GCD Broilspam, not the oGCD weave), isn't the actual issue.

Indeed, it seems Broil's shorter cast time and Art of War not having single target applications are actually the big changes here. Broil's shorter cast means no need to switch up spells for oGCD weaves most of the time, and slidecasting is a stronger movement utility, removing as much need for casting Ruin 2 instead of Broil. Add in Art of War not being a single target gain over Ruin 2 and you basically eliminate everything other than the two natural Bio refreshes per minute.

(I should also note, these are some of the only posts I've made in this subforum that actually got a decent amount of Likes/Upvotes, so I think people kind of agreed with the analysis.)

[ASkellington]

And you've been around this forum long enough to know it happens more frequently and is often used for a reason of why Healers aren't working/designed right, even in this thread.

But the thing I'm pointing out is "more DPS buttons" won't fix that unless Healers also do substantially more DAMAGE (at least as much as Tanks) to make them at least as attractive as Tanks to bring to runs. It won't make Healers necessary for content and won't prevent people dropping them - all identified as problems.

What is your solution FOR THOSE PROBLEMS?

This has jack all to do with it and you know it. Adding extra damage isn't to fix healers being unneeded in runs due to SE's garbage low healing requirements and I never claimed it to be so. Its to make them less boring for experienced healers when they have excessive down time.

Don't even know why you brought this up other than to have a "gotcha" moment by saying "see? right here, you agree with me that the problem is removing down time" aka higher healing. Well no duh sherlock. We've asked for it all through out Shb. Here's the thing you keep ignoring no matter how many times its been brought to your attention:

You are never going to reduce down time enough for a veteran healer without alienating the very casuals you keep on professing that you're trying to think of when you say "no more dps, think of the casuals". They aren't looking for that excessive healing, and they aren't prepared for that excessive healing. Its why MSQ dungeons are a snoozefest. As said to you multiple times over we avocate for more dps over more healing not only because SE has proven time and time again they aren't looking to give higher healing requirements, its because in casual content it is not and never has been a requirement for healers to do dps.

But do you know what increasing healing does? It makes healing a requirement. Meaning that if Casual Timmy has a problem with healing because he isn't using all of his tools like he should be, he's MORE LIKELY to be kicked than if he had extra dps and never touched it, because unlike extra healing, extra dps isn't going to kill someone because there are next to no enrages in casual content (dungeons, raids, trial and I'm not talking about EX and savage for clarity).

The fact of the matter is you don't want more dps buttons and you're going to try to spin every single narrative you can find to argue against it.

We've been over this, multiple times. We are NEVER going to agree on this. So you may as well stop arguing the point.

[Renathras]

This has jack all to do with it and you know it.

Don't say things like "and you know it" when I don't, in fact, know it, because it doesn't, in fact, deal with the problem.

Adding things just so people who are "experienced" aren't bored shouldn't be the problem framing at all. If "experienced" players are bored, it should be asked "why are they bored?" If the answer is something related to them not needing to heal enough (it is), as expressed by not needing Healers for runs (as it has been expressed), that IS, in fact, "all to do with it". And you know it. If people are literally not taking Healers to runs, then adding more DPS buttons "so you won't be bored" isn't a solution SINCE YOU HAVE BEEN BENCHED. You guys seem to be saying this is happening a lot and you guys are even among those being benched! More DPS buttons doesn't bring you OFF THE BENCH, now does it? If no one is running 4 mans with Healers, more DPS buttons doesn't get you a 4 man invite, now does it? The "more DPS buttons" "solution" seems not to be solving much at all. You're still going to be bored sitting in PF unable to find a group, no matter how many DPS buttons you have.

...unless you guys have been overstating how much that's happening...?

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It's not a "gotcha".

It's me pointing out that adding DPS buttons is a band-aid that doesn't fix the underlying problem. It's treating the symptoms, not a cure to the actual issue at hand.

The issue isn't "We press 1 so much!". The issue is "WHY are you pressing 1 so much?" with the answer being "Because damage is so trivial it can be healed with a handful of oGCDs over entire runs, and in some cases (thank you, ForsakenRoe), aren't even needed at all!"

The symptom of that issue is pressing 1 so much, but that's not the issue. The issue is that FFXIV's healing is becoming such that the Trinity is breaking down, and that's the actual problem. It's not a "gotcha" to say what the actual problem is and that your solution doesn't address it. Hell, YOU said it was a problem!

And I already addressed "Casual Timmy" - the solution is more consistent but smaller spikes of healing. I'm a "Casual Timmy" and I have no problem dealing with that, nor did I in ARR and HW when that was the norm. "Casual Timmy" is just fine with that level of healing needs. On the other hand, do you know what DID cause "Casual Timmy" problems back then? The DPS rotations of Healers, and particularly Cleric Stance. The whole thing was a huge issue. Even after Cleric was removed, "experienced" players STILL complain about "Casual Timmy" not DPSing enough.

So not only does "more DPS buttons" NOT help "Casual Timmy", it also doesn't address the actual problem.

The fact of the matter is you want more dps buttons and you're going to try to spin every single narrative you can find to argue for it.

I, on the other hand, am actually talking about the real problem, what's going on, methods to fix it, methods that would address your complaints - even the ones you're now shrugging off and insisting I not talk about even though you posted about them in this thread mere days ago (or less). I'm concerned with actual solutions, which I do not think "moar DPS buttonsss!" is. And I'm not even abjectly OPPOSED TO IT. I've supported SCH having its SB kit back (that's more DPS buttons), WHM having Aero 3 returned (that's more DPS buttons), SGE having a 1-2-3 rotation (that's more DPS buttons; also Toxicon more in the rotation and a shorter Phegma CD would be more DPS GCD buttons pressed in the rotation - which again is more DPS buttons), and AST having..........whatever the hell AST players want, which may very well be MORE DPS BUTTONS.

How can you sit there and say I "don't want more dps buttons" when I've literally supported DPS buttons being added and/or the rate of non-nuke GCD buttons being pressed in the rotation to EVERY SINGLE HEALER JOB??

As to your last line: Then why are you contesting the point? If we're never going to agree, why are you arguing the point?

[ASkellington]

Don't say things like "and you know it" when I don't, in fact, know it, because it doesn't, in fact, deal with the problem.

Adding things just so people who are "experienced" aren't bored shouldn't be the problem framing at all. If "experienced" players are bored, it should be asked "why are they bored?"

Sigh. I started all of these simply because in the beginning people called you a troll when you and I both know you aren't and so in good faith I keep up discussions with you that have now devolved into nothing more than meaningless back and forth. So I am going to answer the question as clearly as I possibly can.

The problems will healers are as follows:

1. Outgoing damage is too low
2. Our healing kits have little to no interactivity with skills making healing boring.
3. Our dps skills a a nuke and DoT.

Let's start with 1. Across all stages of the game from MSQ to even Ultimate outgoing damage is too low. This is something we all agree with and something that we pointed out back in Shb. This isn't a new problem. Its an old one.

The simple fix you would think is to increase damage. Yeah its not that simple. First - SE doesn't want to increase healing to make things accessible to new healers. They also don't want content to be too hard as to stone wall a group in DF because the healer can't heal properly.

What does this mean for experienced healers? Their gameplay is dull. Either because we came from previous expansions that have already taught us how to heal or another MMO, we're capable of healing as little as possible to save our bigger heals for emergencies, how to manage our CDs so we always have something in the event of a screw up AND also how to manage our mana so we either never run out, or have a good buffer for heavy intensive healing that isn't going to run us dry. All of which FFXIV as of Shb does not do (can't speak for previous expansions).

What we have left is a bunch of CDs we don't need and/or use in the majority of content and our down time filler. We'll get to that.

2. Is best summed up as 1 button press to heal with no thought. There are a handful of skills we have left that actually interact with one another but not enough to either give each healer a strong identity from one another in their game play (they all feel the same) or even enough to make our kits interesting and fun to engage with.

Synastry only really works with Benefics 1 and 2. No oGCDs or even A. Benefic properly (it doesn't apply the HoT). Neutral only works on GCDs (Nocturnal at least worked on some oGCDs). Lillies are a good idea, but again GCD and doesn't even interact with Glare/Holy or even boost the next Medica 2 for example. Toxicon is a worse Lily because SGE much like SCH is best to heal on the oGCD so once they're gone it isn't even worth to reapply your shield to make it break to get it back (and again, doesn't work with oGCDs).

SCH is the best of the four because at least Aetherflow lets you decide between healing and damage and a lot of the abilities it has access to are ones you're going to regularly use.

So with both 1 and 2 being an issue it makes 3 WORSE. Because there's nothing to distract the experience player from spamming their nuke over 50% of a fight with the occasional DoT or w/e other damage button they have access to (Misery, Toxicon, Phlegma, Energy Drain).

So what is the fix?

The fix is threefold - increase healing across the board, reduce redundancy in kits by removing unneeded tools and condensing them into nuanced buttons to allow the healer to have a choice in how to approach a situation that is different per healer (example - remove charges of ED and CI from AST and allow Synastry to work with both), and add extra dps buttons to make the down time less boring.

SE refuses to do any of it. I don't know why we have bloated kits. Tanks don't need 15 mitigation options we sure as hell don't need 15 healing ones. We already talked about increased healing requirements and dps? Frankly the old post of requesting Yoshi P to play a Hrothgar healer from fresh start of game to current patch is still a fitting punishment.

We've asked. For all of it. First starting with higher healing because "healers must heal" thinking they would give us a bone. Then it came to "at least let our down time not be boring by giving us extra dps buttons". Is that a bandaid fix? YEAH. Its only part of the problem, but its the part that's the EASIEST to fix and one to "silence the wails of QQ healers".

They don't want to put in the work to make healers good. Or any class imo outside of BLM. They seem to only want to do the bare minimum and for healers? The BARE MINIMUM they can do is give us 2 more dps buttons.

So what does all of this have to do with the topic of this discussion?

1T/3DPS and all the 1 healer runs and no healer runs are to show case to the devs and the rest of the community who think we're whining for no reason that, yes, get your head out the sand, healing is that low to both make healing an unenjoyable experience when you GET experienced to healer mains and (if for whatever reason you don't think our enjoyment is worth crap) you can straight up replace us in content, in a holy trinity game.

It quite literally is meant to be nothing more than a wake up call to the devs that there is a problem and they need to fix it.

[Renathras]

...

1 - I agree with 1 (by your writing, you seem to be saying you know I do, so we're good there). I think the solution is less big spikes of damage and more gradual, consistent but smaller, damage, and possibly pruning/weakening oGCDs. It seems from survey answers, this is what a lot of other people agree with as well. While many want more DPS actions, many more say they want to heal, they just need encounters to actually use their healing ability. While it is oft said here that the Devs won't increase healing requirements in any way (even by making them lower intensity...which seems an odd thing to insist would be harder...), Yoshi P is already on record (quote produced by AmiableApkallu above) saying they, the Devs, believe that adding to the damage kits will be what drives novice Healers off and creates animosity in the community towards those who use less DPS buttons in their kit (something we know historically happened with Cleric and it is reasonable to assume would happen again).

It's why I find it difficult to believe they'll do the opposite of those things.

2 - I think it's fair that some heals DON'T have interactions. Many games have direct healing abilities that don't have gimmicks or tricks. Many MMOs and RPGs have entire classes based around this concept. I believe the problem comes when all the healing classes work that same way, and do agree there should be more going on. The thing is, we have to ask what an interaction is. For example, you list Energy Drain as a good example and I'll point out (in yet another thread) the second most complaint about SCH in all the surveys we've done (after "give us more DoTs") is that people hate Energy Drain because they feel like they can't use their Aetherflow on any of the AF heals without being bad, and how awful that feels because they LIKE abilities like Soil and Excog and feel penalized if they use them. SGE has been consistently praised by these same people as not having that trade-off.

...on the other hand, I'd point out that Recitation, Emergency Tactics, and Deployment Tactics (and Pepsis and Zoe) are "modifier" abilities that work with other abilities. But because they're (a) oGCDs and require (b) GCD heals (damage losses), they get overlooked while the far inferior and LESS interactive Energy Drain (the only way it interacts with your kit is by locking you out of things) is touted as good, when the people responding to our questions seem to think it's pretty bad.

Perhaps we mean different things by interaction, though...?

3 - As I've said, I don't think this is inherently a problem as long as it's not the exact same thing. I don't like BLM's rotation. If I want to play a Caster, I have two other options that play nothing like BLM. But say I don't like WHM's rotation. There are no other options. They're all the same. I think this is the problem - there's no GETTING AWAY from the Nuke + DoT. In the long form survey, I think there were either 2 or 3 people saying they would like Dia removed and JUST be a 1 spamming WHM because they want their focus on healing. While in the minority, and I won't say they aren't, a LOT of the other responses were along the lines of "I just want more to heal", with a few taking the "healing right now is a conflict of two designs, do damage or heal, and I don't care WHICH ONE, but SE needs to pick ONE and run with it". In short, not everyone is at odds with the Nuke + DoT issue itself, the problems are more that it's the same for all the healer Jobs so no one can escape it, and that the healing requirements are low enough for it to even be an issue thanks to too many and too powerful oGCDs.

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I do agree we have bloated kits. Worse, the kits often have a TON of overlap. WHM/AST is the most egregious case, but if you ignore all the oGCDs and ONLY look at the GCDs, the difference is...what, WHM has Cure 3 and Solace/Rapture (though they're just Cure 2/Medica) and Misery while AST has, what, Macrocosmos?

They both have Cure 1. They both have Cure 2 (WHM has 3 versions of it, basically), they both have Medica, they both have Medica 2, they both have Regen, they both have Dia, and they both have Glare. Taking away the oGCDs (which people often don't "feel", so to speak), the only distinction is WHM has Cure 3 (rarely used) and the Lily abilities in its rotation, and AST has Macrocosmos (which is used as a big CD in a healing plan). It's ridiculous how identical they are.

...then we can add SGE to the mix and see it has Cure 1/Physic and Medica (and Adlo and Succor), Dia, and Glare, which obviously is the same as SCH which is only different in that they DON'T have Medica but have Ruin 2 instead. And Summon, I guess?

Top to bottom, they're the same. Top to bottom, a lot of people felt left out because there's no healing Job that is what they like.

And as you note, it's not limited to Healers, as Tanks likewise have bloated kits.

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As to the last...maybe. I'm not sure people are doing it to explicitly send a message any more than Sebazy tanking Titan on WHM was meant to. It probably started more as people just seeing if they could do it. That's definitely the 1 healer Ultimate motivation.

And, to be fair, there'd probably be a lot of 1/0 Tank runs on things, too, if it wasn't that Tanks are just invincible, partly due to their Tank Mastery ability and otherwise due to their fairly ridiculous self-sustain. Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but I don't remember WAR and PLD having that much immunity to damage and "No, it's fine, I'll heal myself" in ARR or HW. I didn't play DRK and only dabbled in WAR, but I didn't remember any Tank having a chunky heal as part of their 1-2-3 back then...

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I think the Devs recognize there's an issue - Yoshi P's "We're trying to give you what you want, is this not it? WHAT DO YOU WANT?!?" after P5-8S were released indicates the exasperation going on in the Dev team - they just are super kid gloves about solutions because they remember Cleric stance and the massive healer shortage and toxic behavior of yesteryear and don't want a repeat of it.

[ASkellington]

I think the Devs recognize there's an issue - Yoshi P's "We're trying to give you what you want, is this not it? WHAT DO YOU WANT?!?" after P5-8S were released indicates the exasperation going on in the Dev team - they just are super kid gloves about solutions because they remember Cleric stance and the massive healer shortage and toxic behavior of yesteryear and don't want a repeat of it.

If they actually read feedback like they SAY they do they would know what we want.

Quite literally all they need to do is get a translator and read the entirety of Recon's post that has been nicely updated for EW. That is the most upvoted part of the healer forums, is a quality post and details what's wrong with healers, what to do to fix it and what each healer wants.

They don't even have to do all of it, but it would give them ideas if they would get their act together and just READ.

I stand by my statement they don't. Give me a good reason why Living Dead was an issue since HW and only got fixed in this expansion's post patch? Give me a good reason why MCH got a "we didn't know about this ping issue" when it was one mentioned all through out Shb COULD have been fixed in a point patch (as evidenced again this expansion).

My signature quote frankly sums up everything.

[Sebazy]

No, I already said it. 10% +/- 5%. I think it should be 15% +/- 5%, but it was just a quick calculation.

This is the only part of the entire post that matters.

I don't buy the 'it was a quick calculation' excuse whatsoever. I put the exact and precise math right there for you and you refuse to accept it. Why? Because it doesn't support your narrative.

Better luck with the next bit of hyperbole sir. Your credibility and honesty is shot to bits in my eyes.