T/H/D/D vs T/3DPS - By the numbers

[Rilifane]

I fully agree that it shouldn't be possible, let alone be more efficient.
Going "but it's not what MOST players do anyway... and you need hyperskilled uber players anyway" is just moving goalposts, handwaving and not even true.
The AST solo heal in DSR was a case of praying to rngesus and using a specific class but we're still talking about the hardest content in the game, current ultimate AND the more difficult one - that gets solo-healed shortly after release before even having true Ultimate BiS.

And I've solo healed a bunch of savages and ex trials without issues... in PF. Nope, no hyperoptimized uberskilled world first static. Just PF peeps. And I still didn't have to dip into GCD healing most of the time. I've also seen my fair share of solo heal runs when I was on dps, e5s was good for solo healing as it only required one person to switch position for CL and that's it. Especially the weapon trials frequently got solo healed on my DC same as Zodiark Ex. Hydaelyn not as much but I still saw it. And Light DC isn't known for being the uberskilled pro raider DC.
1T/3D dungeon runs were done with casuals from my FC; players that were somewhere in the green area with dps, often not even playing their main class. How is that "excellent skill"?

There is no "everyone has to play flawlessly, perfect comp necessary, play rotation perfectly at all times, be perfectly coordinated" to pull it off except for DSR solo heal.
It is possible in all types of content, including the most difficult content in the entire game that SHOULD be designed around 2/2/4 but is somehow possible with 2/1/5. And for anything below savage, many PF parties can pull it off.
FFlogs blocked solo heal runs from showing up in the ranking but if they reverted that change, I can guarantee you that more people would go for solo heal runs.
The third party site is partly responsible for keeping the "ditch healers" in check. A third party site.

[Sebazy]

Regardless, the top compositions for speed runs do appear to be T/3D parties, with the traditional T/H/D/D party being approximately 5-15% slower, depending on dungeon. This doesn't change everything since the deviation is relatively small (usually less than 2 minutes) and the speed running community for 4 mans is also very niche (meaning not a thing that the community as a whole cares about nor that the Devs balance around), but putting it here for the sake of completeness/awareness. Whether the difference is noticeable or worthwhile to you probably depends on what your reliable dungeon running group consists of and how much effort or coordination you do or don't wish to use. :ENDEDIT

Dead ends is 13.5% slower.
Smileton is 17.5% slower.
Dreamscape is 14.6% slower.
Alzadaal is 20.6% slower.
Troia is 22.2% slower.
Manalis is 13.89% slower.

Could you explain how you came to 5-15%? I defended you on the initial post likely being an honest mistake but this is blatant padding the numbers for damage limitation.

2 minutes is a big chunk of time when the entire dungeon is taking ~9 to 12 minutes to clear. And no, trying to hand wave that off by suggesting that the deviation is small is also pretty false.

The simple fact is that if you have a group that can play to a reasonable standard and the tank doesn't mind playing Warrior, you will beat the dungeon 13-22% faster, no ifs, no buts.

As I said before, the reason this isn't more common isn't because speed running isn't popular or whatever, it's roulette bonuses that stop it from being worth doing. Take them out of the picture and you have what happens when especially easy Extremes get released. Did you know that there are just shy of 11000 non standard comp entries listed for Innocence Extreme recorded in the weeks before Savage launched?

Be a little more honest, you're doing your credibility no favours here.

[Connor]

Can’t wait for SE to read this thread and conclude that all content should just become role agnostic like PvP or Deep Dungeon

[Sebazy]

Aren't we there already tbh? This game doesn't really make use of the trinity now until Extreme and even then that's a stretch at times.

[Connor]

Aren't we there already tbh? This game doesn't really make use of the trinity now until Extreme and even then that's a stretch at times.

Basically, but I also don’t doubt that they can somehow makes things even worse . Like fights that are pure mechanics (no abilities need to be used from any job) or just a series of *shudders* quick-time events (I vomited a little)

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

Basically, but I also don’t doubt that they can somehow makes things even worse . Like fights that are pure mechanics (no abilities need to be used from any job) or just a series of *shudders* quick-time events (I vomited a little)

Don’t give them ideas >,>;

[AmiableApkallu]

Basically, but I also don’t doubt that they can somehow makes things even worse . Like fights that are pure mechanics (no abilities need to be used from any job) or just a series of *shudders* quick-time events (I vomited a little)

SE already tried that once: the second boss of Bardam's Mettle (Lv.65 dungeon).

[Renathras]

You could take all the self heals away and it wouldn't do much aside from make tanks upset.

Plenty of dungeons I've ran there has been an AOE that I don't need to heal because they don't even do half damage. By the time the next unavoidable damage occurs I can press a button, they're up to full and nothing has changed. Tanks are worse. Unless they stand in bad I only need to pop CI or Exal on a tank buster (some times not even that) and they're fine. The "worst" I ever have to do is pop a regen on them. Bosses are a joke to heal in this game.

Again, this is so odd to me since I have to actively heal players in DF groups I run all the time, and people sometimes still die. I'm not sure what makes the difference, but a lot of raidwides knock off over half of DPS health values, and automatic healing isn't sufficient to restore them fully before additional attacks in some cases. Again, final boss of Lapis add phase has 3 individual players targeted, then a party stack, a second 3 individual target if the adds aren't dead yet, then the raidwide phase transition, then another stack on the other side of it.

I'm sure that can all be healed with oGCDs, but not healing any of it AT ALL? And the boss is untargetable during this phase, do Reprise/Addle/Feint are only effective on the stack post-transition.

This is also assuming no players are taking avoidable damage, and in most of my runs, at least one person gets clipped fairly frequently, and sometimes two (or all three). So maybe I just have bad DF luck, but I'm not at all sure that damage is so negligible you could actually just NOT heal at all and your party be fine...

IMO you're actually rather incorrect on this one, but the reason why is a little complex.

I'm not quite sure how this actually changes what I said, though.

ARR was a crazy time (people would 3 Healer things like Titan Hard early on because "What Enrage?"). I don't claim to know the motivations of all players, but having a Healer along decreases risk. I'm not sure how well that can be argued against. If you have, say, a WAR/NIN/BLM/BLM party and someone DOES die (one of the deaths from the mono-role parties I did was our all Tank party doing the second boss. Someone got clipped by the X attack, which apparently applies Doom. No Esuna means KO. No Raise means stay KO.), you have no way to bring them back. On the off chance there is a cascade of deaths, this can lead to wipes. While wipes aren't exactly punishing, they do add to the dungeon complete time, and they are something that people like to avoid. Besides which, if a party already has a Tank, they don't need to bring a Healer for the DF time-to-enter bonus.

"Once my teams had Coil/savage on farm". That last word is pretty important there. Not to mention you're talking about statics, not average player runs of simple content for tomes.

.

I think my issue with the design thing is that it's yet another case of hyperbole.

Say you have a flawless Rolex, worth more than a lot of people's cars or bank accounts. Master craftsmanship, high quality materials. But you play to go deep water diving. The watch isn't useful to you THERE, but that doesn't mean the watch is BADLY DESIGNED. It just means the design is for something else.

My contention is that the Healers are not BADLY DESIGNED - they are designed fine - the problem is the encounter designs of the game have shifted over time to be (relatively) incompatible with them.

the hardest content in the game, current ultimate AND the more difficult one

I'm kind of curious, can any Ultimtes be solo Tanked?

I've solo Healed Extremes without issue, but I've also solo Tanked extremes. And I think there was an all Tank run of something Savage (P1S?)

SE already tried that once: the second boss of Bardam's Mettle (Lv.65 dungeon).

I wouldn't say I mind fights like that every once in a while, but honestly, I don't think they're all that fun in most cases. That one was okay I suppose...but I wouldn't want to see a lot more of them. Though some bosses use things like that as mini-phases.

[ASkellington]

Again, this is so odd to me since I have to actively heal players in DF groups I run all the time, and people sometimes still die. I'm not sure what makes the difference, but a lot of raidwides knock off over half of DPS health values, and automatic healing isn't sufficient to restore them fully before additional attacks in some cases. Again, final boss of Lapis add phase has 3 individual players targeted, then a party stack, a second 3 individual target if the adds aren't dead yet, then the raidwide phase transition, then another stack on the other side of it.

I'm sure that can all be healed with oGCDs, but not healing any of it AT ALL?

I didn't say not healing any of it at all. Its been a minute since I ran that fight but I don't heal every one of those. At most I heal two especially since 3 of my abilities work best if I wait. And again, that's only one part of the fight instead of the whole thing.

This is usually the set up for a boss Shb, EW doesn't matter

1. Starts with Raidwide/TB.

If Raidwide, another one isn't going to happen for ~60. Meaning even if I delay putting down ES I don't need to heal the damage and party passive regens enough til the next raidwide that if I want to I can ignore the damage altogether. If TB I don't need to do anything. While I do like the new mini-defensives that all tanks received in EW they've made TB trivial as a result. And even if the tank doesn't use them, a normal defensive cooldown means I don't need CI or Exalt at all. Tanks' 1-2-3 heals them, and so does passive regen.

2. Whatever the above didn't happen comes next so TB/Raidwide. We've already discussed how negligible TBs are in this game past SB. And what I do for a raidwide in 1 I do here.

After that depends on the boss. If there's a stack, that's when I'd heal if I didn't heal the previous raid wide. If there's puddles (ie, targeted drops that also do damage upon drop) I'll heal that and so on.

Have I gotten the occasional run where I've healed nothing at all? Yes. Because DPS don't stand in bad and my tanks know how to heal themselves. Is that rare? Yes. Does it mean I'm using all of my kit on CD? No.

tl;dr - how much I heal depends on how hard the AOEs hit for. If the first unavoidable one is pitiful I'll wait til the next one because there's no reason to heal it.

[Renathras]

I didn't say not healing any of it at all.

Okay, I guess that's what I'm getting at. So long as we agree on that, I see no further issue.

One of my constant battles in here is hyperbole, so "no healing needed at all" is hyperbole and shouldn't be said. If we're in agreement SOME healing is needed but it's easy to address using very little of our kit (wall-to-walls aside; those actually can be somewhat more engaging), then I see nothing left to argue about there.