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  1. #1
    Player
    Deceptus's Avatar
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    Sep 2013
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    The Goblet - 16th Ward, Plot 55
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    Deceptus Keelon
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    Behemoth
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    Sage Lv 90

    The Healer Double Standard

    TL : DR "If you want to DPS play a DPS" only applies to healers and not tanks. SE took away their (Tank's) damage penalty and took away our (Healer's) damage options.

    The healer DPS mentality exists because of the way the game has been designed for the last 6 years. Low sustained incoming damage, a damage spike, followed by large periods of downtime.

    Apply Dot, Spam filler 12 times, repeat until dead from level 4 to level 70 just isn't fun.

    Edit: This playstyle is still the same at level 80 and level 90.


    We have another interview out that has a few healer related questions

    https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...h_yoshida_bit/

    And the important part is that Yoshi-P finally states this:

    Q: On to the Healers, Scholar seems to have lost a lot of DPSing abilities, we feel like this will be an adjustment where opinions will vary a lot. Can you go into detail on what the thought process was while deciding on changes needed to balance the Healers?

    Yoshida: We believe trying to heal as little as possible and DPSing instead isn’t what a Healers role should be, so we adjusted all 3 Healers to be more balanced while keeping their original characteristics alive.
    This is the same guy that said a few days ago "We feel like Tanks are just DPS with some cooldowns, but we don't want that" and then proceeded to defend that design choice the rest of the interview.

    They took away the tank damage penalty and gutted healer damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by WaxSw View Post
    Imagine (if tanks) just have 1 dps button, 1 dot button, provoke, tank stance and the rest of your skills defensive CD, thats what the equivalent of what the devs are doing to the healers.
    Does the possibility exist that the developers will design the game in the future with increased damage so that healers will have to heal more?

    Yes

    But we have history to go on and history has shown time and time again (Aurum Vale, Vault, Bardam's Mettle, Steps of Faith, Shinryu) that the average player simply can't handle advanced mechanics and high enemy NPC damage. Most never touched their Diversion ability (reduces threat on attacks for those reading in the future, this was removed in 5.0). Most have no idea that Bloodbath or Second Wind exist.

    It's becoming more and more clear that these developers have no idea how healers play or what to do with them:



    Another pretty blatant example of a healer double standard.

    In the latest Live Letter it was announced that

    1) Healer MP will be capped at 10K mana
    2) Piety will affect MP regen rates.
    3) Main stat Materia can't be melded and will no longer be obtainable

    Ok Cool. So all we have to do is start stacking piety to increase our mana regen to offset the loss of Refresh and Mana shift. Sounds reasonable right?

    Except Piety is a terrible stat, just like tenacity is. It doesn't give enough back to justify it's melding.

    Stuff like this is why so many players think that the developers are absolutely disconnected from the player base and have no idea what they're doing or have poor team communication. It's not the first time Yoshi's been caught flat footed on what his team does.

    Yoshi-P on Red Mages (2 part GIF):



    Meanwhile on Scholar



    Double Standard on healing reporting

    Quote Originally Posted by Shalan View Post
    I spent a bit scouring the four major interviews with YoshiP following the media tour and release of role-action information, and out of roughly 223 questions there were 92 question related to roles/classes.

    Of those 92 questions, only 3 were focused on healers. And they all came from a single interview.

    Now, this may be somewhat set off balance by the introduction of a new tanking/DPS job. But having an entire role that's undergoing some hefty changes and was already in something of an uproar/fervor over the lack of information following the Fan-Fests and previous live letters, having only 3.26% of your role questions being healer oriented is insufficient. In fact, some interviews went out of their way to avoid addressing healers ("As for the job balance, setting aside healers...") in favour of other roles.
    Simply put, we've been left largely in the dark to stew over the changes with little official statements on our concerns, and that's not something you want to have happen with your consumers.
    (emphasis mine)


    I'm not saying healers have to be DPS machines, but I want our jobs to be fun and regarding healers, there's nothing to do after everyone is topped up but do damage.

    And Apply Dot, Spam filler 12 times, repeat until dead just isn't fun.

    Because ultimately:

    Quote Originally Posted by Brightamethyst View Post
    The real question about healer DPS has always been, and still remains: What else do they expect us to do during downtime?

    Most people don't want DPS options for the sake of having big numbers, but because there's literally nothing else to do most of the time.
    Update for 2021 Patch 5.0: This problem is still occurring. Our basic DPS skills are still a single dot and a single spam from lvl 4 to lvl 80. When the FFXIV devs say they are concerned about healer "accessibility" they don't feel the same way about tanks.

    Update for 2022 Patch 6.0: This problem is still occurring. Our basic DPS skills are still a single dot and a single spam from lvl 4 to lvl 90.

    What this shows is that a healer spend 70% of their entire casts spamming a single button only to out damage a tank who was using 13 abilities. The mage had as many Glare attacks as the PLD had auto attacks.


    Source: Nizzi

    Quote Originally Posted by Sebazy View Post
    I did a 'lol who needs tanks' Titan HM in 2.0 on WHM using Medica II to build a comical agro lead over a group compared mostly of the EU 1st BCOB team's DPS. Medica II got changed to prevent this a week or two later.

    People started using Summoner's Titan to tank RamuhEX removing the need for a tank there. This also got nerfed a week or two later.

    Figure out a way to do an Extreme or Savage without Tanks and you can bet it's going to get nerfed ASAP. Do the same with no healers and SE don't seem to bat an eye lid at it.
    Update for 2022:

    SE for a long time has said they don't want to change healers in the middle of an expansion for this reason or that reason, yet have zero issues doing massive changes for both DPS and Tanks. In Live Letter 70 Yoshi-P said (Paraphrasing)

    "Yes we understand we're doing these changes to job right before Ultimate is released but we're confident in players abilities to adjust."

    Quote Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami View Post
    Except they explictly said they werent doing any drastic changes to healers since it was too close to ultimat....yet thyere fine making drastic changes to dps jobs? Yeah no sorry, its just more stalling being done by Yoshi p because he has no idea wtf hes doing in regards to healers(and other things if we look at the latest hrothgar controversy." We've been told for 6+ years to just wait, wait till this patch, wait till this expansion, and theyve done nothing. Only have made things worse.
    (196)
    Last edited by Deceptus; 06-09-2023 at 07:32 AM.

  2. #2
    Player
    Ilenya's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    Limsa Lominsa
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    Aurora Vlondett
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    Balmung
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    Arcanist Lv 100
    It feels like, in a vacuum he's not wrong. Tanks have to be able to DPS due to how Enmity works, but if tanks job is supposed to be just soaking up damage, they would need to have almost nothing but "Increases Enmity on target, increases Enmity in area, Lowers target's enmity" skills that do no damage. I bet tanks would absolutely riot if that happened, though.
    (72)

  3. #3
    Player
    kidalutz's Avatar
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    Sigrun Helasdottir
    World
    Brynhildr
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 80
    Well considering that theres quite a few healers that are so DPS happy that they let the tank die after they've blown thier cooldowns I don't see the downside of the argument. a Tank can still keep aggro a healer thats DPSing when they should be healing is a liability.
    (15)
    "Sometimes I wonder I heal for fun. or if I heal because I'm a glutton for punishment."

  4. #4
    Player
    Ilenya's Avatar
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    Aurora Vlondett
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    Balmung
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    Arcanist Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by kidalutz View Post
    Well considering that theres quite a few healers that are so DPS happy that they let the tank die after they've blown thier cooldowns I don't see the downside of the argument. a Tank can still keep aggro a healer thats DPSing when they should be healing is a liability.
    So some bad healers ruin it for everyone, therefore tanks should have never had DPS combos because of a few that couldn't keep proper hate.
    (84)

  5. #5
    Player Doozer's Avatar
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    Character
    Gunnar Mel'nik
    World
    Diabolos
    Main Class
    Bard Lv 90
    Well to be fair enmity is generated by attacking, healing, or special tank skills. It's not the job of healers to generate enmity, but it is for tanks. Therefore, they benefit from both attacking and their special skills in order to do their job.

    Though I wouldn't "riot" if tanks had less DPS, because I often take aggro from the MT when I'm OT even though they're in tank stance and I'm not.
    (3)

  6. #6
    Player
    kidalutz's Avatar
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    Sigrun Helasdottir
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    Brynhildr
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    Scholar Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Ilenya View Post
    So some bad healers ruin it for everyone, therefore tanks should have never had DPS combos because of a few that couldn't keep proper hate.
    You ever hear the saying this is why we cant have nice things? It's brought about because a few ruin it for everyone. If tanks lost thier dps I personally wouldn't mind that either. I Tank and Heal and DPS and I do my damage when I have an opportunity on all the classes I fail to see why a handful of people are still pissing and moaning when they only have one half of the equation which is they're losing some DPS stuff when they havent had a chance to test what the new content has to offer them. Would I like to see an increase in damage to compensate absolutely but I'm willing to be chill until I see what the content has to bring to the table.
    (12)
    "Sometimes I wonder I heal for fun. or if I heal because I'm a glutton for punishment."

  7. #7
    Player
    WaxSw's Avatar
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    May 2019
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    Waxillium Larede
    World
    Twintania
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    Machinist Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Doozer View Post
    Well to be fair enmity is generated by attacking, healing, or special tank skills. It's not the job of healers to generate enmity, but it is for tanks. Therefore, they benefit from both attacking and their special skills in order to do their job.

    Though I wouldn't "riot" if tanks had less DPS, because I often take aggro from the MT when I'm OT even though they're in tank stance and I'm not.
    Imagine just have 1 dps button, 1 dot button, provoke, tank stance and the rest of your skills defensive CD, thats the equivalent of what the devs are doing to the healers, we're not "rioting" because we want more dps, we are "rioting" because we want to have fun when we dps and a dumb 1 skill rotation doesn't deliver that at all.
    (83)
    Last edited by WaxSw; 06-04-2019 at 12:20 AM.

  8. #8
    Player
    Deceptus's Avatar
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    Deceptus Keelon
    World
    Behemoth
    Main Class
    Sage Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by WaxSw View Post
    Imagine just have 1 dps button, 1 dot button, provoke, tank stance and the rest of your skills defensive CD, thats what the equivalent of what the devs are doing to the healers, we're not "rioting" because we want more dps, we are "rioting" because we want to have fun when we dps and a dumb 1 skill rotation doesn't deliver that at all.
    Pretty much this, but with an AoE mixed in.
    (43)
    Veteran healers don't care if we need to heal, but right now we don't. We want interesting things to do during the downtime other than a 30s dot and a single filler spell that hasn't changed from lvl 4 to lvl 90.
    Dead DPS do no DPS. Raised DPS do 25/50% lower DPS. Do the mechanics and don't stand in bad stuff.
    Other games expect basic competence, FFXIV is pleasantly surprised by it. Other games have toxic elitism. FFXIV has toxic casualism.[/LIST]

  9. #9
    Player Doozer's Avatar
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    Gunnar Mel'nik
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    Diabolos
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    Bard Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by WaxSw View Post
    Imagine just have 1 dps button, 1 dot button, provoke, tank stance and the rest of your skills defensive CD, thats what the equivalent of what the devs are doing to the healers, we're not "rioting" because we want more dps, we are "rioting" because we want to have fun when we dps and a dumb 1 skill rotation doesn't deliver that at all.
    Funny that people are raving now that SCH is getting this when AST has had it literally the entire time. 1 DPS button, 1 DoT button, and one AoE. Were you crying at the beginning of HW because of that too, or only now because it affects your main job?

    Also you're literally not arguing against anything I said. I said tanks benefit from the aggro generated from DPS, hence why it makes sense for them to still have it.
    (19)

  10. #10
    Player
    Ilenya's Avatar
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    Aurora Vlondett
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    Balmung
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    Arcanist Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Doozer View Post
    Also you're literally not arguing against anything I said. I said tanks benefit from the aggro generated from DPS, hence why it makes sense for them to still have it.
    And I pointed out that they could just as easily change how enmity works, your point?

    As to the first part, most of the healer DPS conversations are saying that healers should have more engaging DPS options. I was not aware AST would not fall under that.
    (35)

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