T/H/D/D vs T/3DPS - By the numbers

[ASkellington]

And you've been around this forum long enough to know it happens more frequently and is often used for a reason of why Healers aren't working/designed right, even in this thread.

But the thing I'm pointing out is "more DPS buttons" won't fix that unless Healers also do substantially more DAMAGE (at least as much as Tanks) to make them at least as attractive as Tanks to bring to runs. It won't make Healers necessary for content and won't prevent people dropping them - all identified as problems.

What is your solution FOR THOSE PROBLEMS?

This has jack all to do with it and you know it. Adding extra damage isn't to fix healers being unneeded in runs due to SE's garbage low healing requirements and I never claimed it to be so. Its to make them less boring for experienced healers when they have excessive down time.

Don't even know why you brought this up other than to have a "gotcha" moment by saying "see? right here, you agree with me that the problem is removing down time" aka higher healing. Well no duh sherlock. We've asked for it all through out Shb. Here's the thing you keep ignoring no matter how many times its been brought to your attention:

You are never going to reduce down time enough for a veteran healer without alienating the very casuals you keep on professing that you're trying to think of when you say "no more dps, think of the casuals". They aren't looking for that excessive healing, and they aren't prepared for that excessive healing. Its why MSQ dungeons are a snoozefest. As said to you multiple times over we avocate for more dps over more healing not only because SE has proven time and time again they aren't looking to give higher healing requirements, its because in casual content it is not and never has been a requirement for healers to do dps.

But do you know what increasing healing does? It makes healing a requirement. Meaning that if Casual Timmy has a problem with healing because he isn't using all of his tools like he should be, he's MORE LIKELY to be kicked than if he had extra dps and never touched it, because unlike extra healing, extra dps isn't going to kill someone because there are next to no enrages in casual content (dungeons, raids, trial and I'm not talking about EX and savage for clarity).

The fact of the matter is you don't want more dps buttons and you're going to try to spin every single narrative you can find to argue against it.

We've been over this, multiple times. We are NEVER going to agree on this. So you may as well stop arguing the point.

[Renathras]

This has jack all to do with it and you know it.

Don't say things like "and you know it" when I don't, in fact, know it, because it doesn't, in fact, deal with the problem.

Adding things just so people who are "experienced" aren't bored shouldn't be the problem framing at all. If "experienced" players are bored, it should be asked "why are they bored?" If the answer is something related to them not needing to heal enough (it is), as expressed by not needing Healers for runs (as it has been expressed), that IS, in fact, "all to do with it". And you know it. If people are literally not taking Healers to runs, then adding more DPS buttons "so you won't be bored" isn't a solution SINCE YOU HAVE BEEN BENCHED. You guys seem to be saying this is happening a lot and you guys are even among those being benched! More DPS buttons doesn't bring you OFF THE BENCH, now does it? If no one is running 4 mans with Healers, more DPS buttons doesn't get you a 4 man invite, now does it? The "more DPS buttons" "solution" seems not to be solving much at all. You're still going to be bored sitting in PF unable to find a group, no matter how many DPS buttons you have.

...unless you guys have been overstating how much that's happening...?

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It's not a "gotcha".

It's me pointing out that adding DPS buttons is a band-aid that doesn't fix the underlying problem. It's treating the symptoms, not a cure to the actual issue at hand.

The issue isn't "We press 1 so much!". The issue is "WHY are you pressing 1 so much?" with the answer being "Because damage is so trivial it can be healed with a handful of oGCDs over entire runs, and in some cases (thank you, ForsakenRoe), aren't even needed at all!"

The symptom of that issue is pressing 1 so much, but that's not the issue. The issue is that FFXIV's healing is becoming such that the Trinity is breaking down, and that's the actual problem. It's not a "gotcha" to say what the actual problem is and that your solution doesn't address it. Hell, YOU said it was a problem!

And I already addressed "Casual Timmy" - the solution is more consistent but smaller spikes of healing. I'm a "Casual Timmy" and I have no problem dealing with that, nor did I in ARR and HW when that was the norm. "Casual Timmy" is just fine with that level of healing needs. On the other hand, do you know what DID cause "Casual Timmy" problems back then? The DPS rotations of Healers, and particularly Cleric Stance. The whole thing was a huge issue. Even after Cleric was removed, "experienced" players STILL complain about "Casual Timmy" not DPSing enough.

So not only does "more DPS buttons" NOT help "Casual Timmy", it also doesn't address the actual problem.

The fact of the matter is you want more dps buttons and you're going to try to spin every single narrative you can find to argue for it.

I, on the other hand, am actually talking about the real problem, what's going on, methods to fix it, methods that would address your complaints - even the ones you're now shrugging off and insisting I not talk about even though you posted about them in this thread mere days ago (or less). I'm concerned with actual solutions, which I do not think "moar DPS buttonsss!" is. And I'm not even abjectly OPPOSED TO IT. I've supported SCH having its SB kit back (that's more DPS buttons), WHM having Aero 3 returned (that's more DPS buttons), SGE having a 1-2-3 rotation (that's more DPS buttons; also Toxicon more in the rotation and a shorter Phegma CD would be more DPS GCD buttons pressed in the rotation - which again is more DPS buttons), and AST having..........whatever the hell AST players want, which may very well be MORE DPS BUTTONS.

How can you sit there and say I "don't want more dps buttons" when I've literally supported DPS buttons being added and/or the rate of non-nuke GCD buttons being pressed in the rotation to EVERY SINGLE HEALER JOB??

As to your last line: Then why are you contesting the point? If we're never going to agree, why are you arguing the point?

[ASkellington]

Don't say things like "and you know it" when I don't, in fact, know it, because it doesn't, in fact, deal with the problem.

Adding things just so people who are "experienced" aren't bored shouldn't be the problem framing at all. If "experienced" players are bored, it should be asked "why are they bored?"

Sigh. I started all of these simply because in the beginning people called you a troll when you and I both know you aren't and so in good faith I keep up discussions with you that have now devolved into nothing more than meaningless back and forth. So I am going to answer the question as clearly as I possibly can.

The problems will healers are as follows:

1. Outgoing damage is too low
2. Our healing kits have little to no interactivity with skills making healing boring.
3. Our dps skills a a nuke and DoT.

Let's start with 1. Across all stages of the game from MSQ to even Ultimate outgoing damage is too low. This is something we all agree with and something that we pointed out back in Shb. This isn't a new problem. Its an old one.

The simple fix you would think is to increase damage. Yeah its not that simple. First - SE doesn't want to increase healing to make things accessible to new healers. They also don't want content to be too hard as to stone wall a group in DF because the healer can't heal properly.

What does this mean for experienced healers? Their gameplay is dull. Either because we came from previous expansions that have already taught us how to heal or another MMO, we're capable of healing as little as possible to save our bigger heals for emergencies, how to manage our CDs so we always have something in the event of a screw up AND also how to manage our mana so we either never run out, or have a good buffer for heavy intensive healing that isn't going to run us dry. All of which FFXIV as of Shb does not do (can't speak for previous expansions).

What we have left is a bunch of CDs we don't need and/or use in the majority of content and our down time filler. We'll get to that.

2. Is best summed up as 1 button press to heal with no thought. There are a handful of skills we have left that actually interact with one another but not enough to either give each healer a strong identity from one another in their game play (they all feel the same) or even enough to make our kits interesting and fun to engage with.

Synastry only really works with Benefics 1 and 2. No oGCDs or even A. Benefic properly (it doesn't apply the HoT). Neutral only works on GCDs (Nocturnal at least worked on some oGCDs). Lillies are a good idea, but again GCD and doesn't even interact with Glare/Holy or even boost the next Medica 2 for example. Toxicon is a worse Lily because SGE much like SCH is best to heal on the oGCD so once they're gone it isn't even worth to reapply your shield to make it break to get it back (and again, doesn't work with oGCDs).

SCH is the best of the four because at least Aetherflow lets you decide between healing and damage and a lot of the abilities it has access to are ones you're going to regularly use.

So with both 1 and 2 being an issue it makes 3 WORSE. Because there's nothing to distract the experience player from spamming their nuke over 50% of a fight with the occasional DoT or w/e other damage button they have access to (Misery, Toxicon, Phlegma, Energy Drain).

So what is the fix?

The fix is threefold - increase healing across the board, reduce redundancy in kits by removing unneeded tools and condensing them into nuanced buttons to allow the healer to have a choice in how to approach a situation that is different per healer (example - remove charges of ED and CI from AST and allow Synastry to work with both), and add extra dps buttons to make the down time less boring.

SE refuses to do any of it. I don't know why we have bloated kits. Tanks don't need 15 mitigation options we sure as hell don't need 15 healing ones. We already talked about increased healing requirements and dps? Frankly the old post of requesting Yoshi P to play a Hrothgar healer from fresh start of game to current patch is still a fitting punishment.

We've asked. For all of it. First starting with higher healing because "healers must heal" thinking they would give us a bone. Then it came to "at least let our down time not be boring by giving us extra dps buttons". Is that a bandaid fix? YEAH. Its only part of the problem, but its the part that's the EASIEST to fix and one to "silence the wails of QQ healers".

They don't want to put in the work to make healers good. Or any class imo outside of BLM. They seem to only want to do the bare minimum and for healers? The BARE MINIMUM they can do is give us 2 more dps buttons.

So what does all of this have to do with the topic of this discussion?

1T/3DPS and all the 1 healer runs and no healer runs are to show case to the devs and the rest of the community who think we're whining for no reason that, yes, get your head out the sand, healing is that low to both make healing an unenjoyable experience when you GET experienced to healer mains and (if for whatever reason you don't think our enjoyment is worth crap) you can straight up replace us in content, in a holy trinity game.

It quite literally is meant to be nothing more than a wake up call to the devs that there is a problem and they need to fix it.

[Renathras]

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1 - I agree with 1 (by your writing, you seem to be saying you know I do, so we're good there). I think the solution is less big spikes of damage and more gradual, consistent but smaller, damage, and possibly pruning/weakening oGCDs. It seems from survey answers, this is what a lot of other people agree with as well. While many want more DPS actions, many more say they want to heal, they just need encounters to actually use their healing ability. While it is oft said here that the Devs won't increase healing requirements in any way (even by making them lower intensity...which seems an odd thing to insist would be harder...), Yoshi P is already on record (quote produced by AmiableApkallu above) saying they, the Devs, believe that adding to the damage kits will be what drives novice Healers off and creates animosity in the community towards those who use less DPS buttons in their kit (something we know historically happened with Cleric and it is reasonable to assume would happen again).

It's why I find it difficult to believe they'll do the opposite of those things.

2 - I think it's fair that some heals DON'T have interactions. Many games have direct healing abilities that don't have gimmicks or tricks. Many MMOs and RPGs have entire classes based around this concept. I believe the problem comes when all the healing classes work that same way, and do agree there should be more going on. The thing is, we have to ask what an interaction is. For example, you list Energy Drain as a good example and I'll point out (in yet another thread) the second most complaint about SCH in all the surveys we've done (after "give us more DoTs") is that people hate Energy Drain because they feel like they can't use their Aetherflow on any of the AF heals without being bad, and how awful that feels because they LIKE abilities like Soil and Excog and feel penalized if they use them. SGE has been consistently praised by these same people as not having that trade-off.

...on the other hand, I'd point out that Recitation, Emergency Tactics, and Deployment Tactics (and Pepsis and Zoe) are "modifier" abilities that work with other abilities. But because they're (a) oGCDs and require (b) GCD heals (damage losses), they get overlooked while the far inferior and LESS interactive Energy Drain (the only way it interacts with your kit is by locking you out of things) is touted as good, when the people responding to our questions seem to think it's pretty bad.

Perhaps we mean different things by interaction, though...?

3 - As I've said, I don't think this is inherently a problem as long as it's not the exact same thing. I don't like BLM's rotation. If I want to play a Caster, I have two other options that play nothing like BLM. But say I don't like WHM's rotation. There are no other options. They're all the same. I think this is the problem - there's no GETTING AWAY from the Nuke + DoT. In the long form survey, I think there were either 2 or 3 people saying they would like Dia removed and JUST be a 1 spamming WHM because they want their focus on healing. While in the minority, and I won't say they aren't, a LOT of the other responses were along the lines of "I just want more to heal", with a few taking the "healing right now is a conflict of two designs, do damage or heal, and I don't care WHICH ONE, but SE needs to pick ONE and run with it". In short, not everyone is at odds with the Nuke + DoT issue itself, the problems are more that it's the same for all the healer Jobs so no one can escape it, and that the healing requirements are low enough for it to even be an issue thanks to too many and too powerful oGCDs.

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I do agree we have bloated kits. Worse, the kits often have a TON of overlap. WHM/AST is the most egregious case, but if you ignore all the oGCDs and ONLY look at the GCDs, the difference is...what, WHM has Cure 3 and Solace/Rapture (though they're just Cure 2/Medica) and Misery while AST has, what, Macrocosmos?

They both have Cure 1. They both have Cure 2 (WHM has 3 versions of it, basically), they both have Medica, they both have Medica 2, they both have Regen, they both have Dia, and they both have Glare. Taking away the oGCDs (which people often don't "feel", so to speak), the only distinction is WHM has Cure 3 (rarely used) and the Lily abilities in its rotation, and AST has Macrocosmos (which is used as a big CD in a healing plan). It's ridiculous how identical they are.

...then we can add SGE to the mix and see it has Cure 1/Physic and Medica (and Adlo and Succor), Dia, and Glare, which obviously is the same as SCH which is only different in that they DON'T have Medica but have Ruin 2 instead. And Summon, I guess?

Top to bottom, they're the same. Top to bottom, a lot of people felt left out because there's no healing Job that is what they like.

And as you note, it's not limited to Healers, as Tanks likewise have bloated kits.

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As to the last...maybe. I'm not sure people are doing it to explicitly send a message any more than Sebazy tanking Titan on WHM was meant to. It probably started more as people just seeing if they could do it. That's definitely the 1 healer Ultimate motivation.

And, to be fair, there'd probably be a lot of 1/0 Tank runs on things, too, if it wasn't that Tanks are just invincible, partly due to their Tank Mastery ability and otherwise due to their fairly ridiculous self-sustain. Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but I don't remember WAR and PLD having that much immunity to damage and "No, it's fine, I'll heal myself" in ARR or HW. I didn't play DRK and only dabbled in WAR, but I didn't remember any Tank having a chunky heal as part of their 1-2-3 back then...

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I think the Devs recognize there's an issue - Yoshi P's "We're trying to give you what you want, is this not it? WHAT DO YOU WANT?!?" after P5-8S were released indicates the exasperation going on in the Dev team - they just are super kid gloves about solutions because they remember Cleric stance and the massive healer shortage and toxic behavior of yesteryear and don't want a repeat of it.

[ASkellington]

I think the Devs recognize there's an issue - Yoshi P's "We're trying to give you what you want, is this not it? WHAT DO YOU WANT?!?" after P5-8S were released indicates the exasperation going on in the Dev team - they just are super kid gloves about solutions because they remember Cleric stance and the massive healer shortage and toxic behavior of yesteryear and don't want a repeat of it.

If they actually read feedback like they SAY they do they would know what we want.

Quite literally all they need to do is get a translator and read the entirety of Recon's post that has been nicely updated for EW. That is the most upvoted part of the healer forums, is a quality post and details what's wrong with healers, what to do to fix it and what each healer wants.

They don't even have to do all of it, but it would give them ideas if they would get their act together and just READ.

I stand by my statement they don't. Give me a good reason why Living Dead was an issue since HW and only got fixed in this expansion's post patch? Give me a good reason why MCH got a "we didn't know about this ping issue" when it was one mentioned all through out Shb COULD have been fixed in a point patch (as evidenced again this expansion).

My signature quote frankly sums up everything.

[Renathras]

...

Maybe.

I suspect they have other ways they gain feedback from players. We know these forums LIKELY don't represent the average player. It's possible whatever larger scale player sample they're looking at IS telling them something different. And/or the Japanese forums (that they actually pay attention to) are only talking about wanting more healing, not more damage...but I find that doubtful.

I also think people are too quick to say "what each healer wants". For example, I don't want a high (damage rotation) skill ceiling. I honestly like more easygoing, direct, and straightforward Jobs with lower skill ceilings. I just don't think EVERY Job should be that. When I played WoW, I remember people saying that Warlock was "the hard one", Mage "the easy one", and Hunter "the braindead" (they used a word mixing Hunter with a derogatory word for "slow of mental development", if you take my meaning; the R-word) one. And people generally felt it was good for the game for all three to exist within it and for each to also have specs to give them more or less engagement. Granted, FFXIV doesn't have specs, but the basic gist of classes with varied difficulties is true. Many people just want to play with their friends and get the most out of their Jobs that way. They can be called lazy, but that doesn't change the fact they still exist, and that diversity of this kind in the Job design is heterogeneity, which is a good thing.

I also am neutral about point 9 (the glams being "too feminine"), and think that's a bit more subject to taste (not sure what the date on this was, but for example, the Cryptlurker healer gear wasn't feminine, and the SCH Job gear generally isn't, though the WHM and AST geara does tend to be... not saying it's not at all a problem, but I'm not sure that's a "what every healer wants", even if I HAVE noted before that Tank Jobs are almost always portrayed as male and Healers female, which I'm not big on Social Justice Warrior stuff, but that just seems odd to me considering doctors and field medics have been male and there are female police officers and firefighters [what I'd call irl tanks] as well; maybe it's just a Japan/non-Western thing), but I don't think that's a major problem, or at least not the most major of things.

I don't like WHM as an "elementalist" and think having it spring from CNJ is kind of stupid and only a legacy of 1.0 (where Jobs didn't exist and they wanted a game of only "classes" and not "Jobs"), and don't want an "elementalist" WHM. I wouldn't mind GEO being added to split off CNJ like how SCH/SMN do off ACN, but I can't imagine the Devs ever doing that.

I also (as I've said) oppose making the Lilies "automatic" since there are times I want to save them UNLESS the base spells (Cure 2/Medica) became instant cast at all times to make up for this change.

I have no issue leveling Healers, and have done it with all of them, do my MSQ as Healer, and even been running some FATEs (since Sebazy asked me) as Healer and have fun with it. I also do S Rank (Hunt) spawn attempts (you know, the kill 100 of 3 types of things on the moon one? Stuff like that) on Healer, as well as my solo play in Deep Dungeons as Healer. No issue, no boredom.

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I guess what my point is, is that just skimming down Recon's list, there are a lot of things I disagree with.

I suspect the Devs are trying to take a wide range of views into account, and between just me, use, and Recon, you've already found one that disagrees on multiple of Recon's points. If you extrapolate us to the entire community, even if it's JUST that ratio, that's 1/3rd of players not agreeing. And that's assuming that ratio holds and that you 100% agree.

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As for LD, I'd wager it's either they were trying to resist homogenization OR they in EW they're doing the "next 10 years" thing and trying to trim around the edges to resolve longstanding issues (it's probably NOT a coincidence we're getting SEVERAL major Job reworks - SMN, PLD, incoming AST and DRG) during this same time frame. That or they genuinely didn't think it was an issue.

I dunno, maybe they are actively ignoring people, but I doubt it. I think it's more they're looking at all the feedback - here and not here - and seeing the divided opinions.

EDIT2:

Now, granted, there ARE some things I agree on.

I think damage should be more consistent and smaller, I think the oGCDs we have are too many and too powerful (and should be weakened or removed), I do think there are redundant abilities that could be pruned down or reworked IF DONE RIGHT (for example, my proposal that Cure 2 and Medica become instant cast and having a Lily simply makes them MP free for a cast and nourishes the Blood Lily, having Cure 1 upgrade into Cure 2 but with Cure 2 having the 1.5 sec cast time and 500 MP cost - don't care if it's "too efficient", we're not chain casting Cure 2 often anyway or doing any MP management other than Lucid on CD at this point, so it's irrelevant), and probably pruning or combining similar abilities like that. I just disagree with doing that for the sake of expanding its DPS kit instead, even if I have some ideas on how that could be done and not be a pain in the butt (now that I mentioned it a few posts back...I kinda like the idea of Presence of Mind leading to a three hit combo of Quake, Tornado, Flood...though if PLD and RDM are a guess, it would just make it where you hit the Glare button 3 more times and it just gives neater effects; and I'm also liking the 4 Glares = 1 +100% Holy now that I mentioned it...)

...but that doesn't mean I agree with all of them, or the exact proposed solutions.

[ASkellington]

I also think people are too quick to say "what each healer wants".

You're being too literal. It's in general of what WHM's want out of their job, what SCH's want, what AST's want and what SGE wants.

And as I've said, SE doesn't even need to do all of them, they need to read the post, get a general idea of what's wanted and then take the ideas and form their own solutions if they don't agree with the perposed ones out right.

For example: ASTs want their cards to be unique buffs instead of the shite that they are now.

If SE doesn't want to give back HW-SB cards, then they need to come up with unique buffs on their own.

[Deceptus]

Give me a good reason why Living Dead was an issue since HW and only got fixed in this expansion's post patch?

Bit off topic but it was "fixed" because it has been an issue since it was released (years) and it was honestly an extremely simple fix: don't require healed to completely heal to full or tank death, put an increase healing modifier after using the ability, or as they chose give them massive life leech. Shouldn't have taken many dev resources to do it. And quite frankly it should have been fixed 2 expansions ago.

Healer fixes aren't so simple because they've been going on longer and their issues are core role mechanic issues.

[ForsakenRoe]

Healer fixes aren't so simple because they've been going on longer and their issues are core role mechanic issues.

Yeh, and unlike LD, the more they double down on the healer design they currently have (adding more and more redundant healing actions every expansion like Aquaveil or Lilybell), the harder it will be to 'undo' it to get it all sorted out. We already get hit with 'oh we cant have more damage skills because it'd be too much button bloat'. Well, we wouldn't have button bloat if we didn't have 17 healing skills when 10-12 well-designed skills would be enough to handle everything. Like, AST has 3 skills that are 'heal for 600-720p of healing witha 1min CD', slightly different in how they do it (CO, CU, Star) but they're all the same end result really, do we actually need all three? If we deleted the stupid bubble, and gave Star a second charge instead, does that actually affect AST's healing at all? Outside of 'AST loses it's 10% mit' (which just puts it on parity with WHM), I doubt it will make AST 'literally unplayable cant heal for shit'. Or merging lower level GCD heals, that should have happened in SB along with them merging Stone 1/2/3/4 as one upgrading button

[ASkellington]

Bit off topic but it was "fixed" because it has been an issue since it was released (years) and it was honestly an extremely simple fix.

Which is my point. MCH was also complained about and a simple fix yet some how they were blindsided by the fact it needed one. I'm not saying that healer issues are as simple of a fix. I AM saying that they don't read feedback like they say they do otherwise they'd have known about these issues they seem to be "blindsided" by. To me it seems more of willful ignorance than a general "we didn't know" at this point.

Doubly so as AST and DRG were planned for post expansion updates. Why they decided to hold off makes sense. And I'm not upset that PLD got theirs necessarily. I'm more upset there are things they CAN do between expansions (LD, MCH) and for w/e reason DECIDE NOT TO. MCH should have been done in one of Shb's point patches. Period. There's no excuse there when they did it in Endwalkers.

Same as LD.