BLM DPS

[Turtledeluxe]

We're talking high-level content, I expect the skill level to be commensurate (for any class). You play with 7 other people who want to clear, it's just respect.

Making DPS a free for all is not respect. It's bowing down to players who think they know what they want instead of delivering your own vision for the game which brought it to massive success to begin with. The main problem with FFXIV and many other games is over catering to this tiny % of players who are very vocal and very competitive. Those are the facts. What other people are saying about BLM dps may be technically incorrect because of how they framed, but it's simply too low to justify using the class on average. The big picture quite simply that that if a class is a selfish DPS, whether we're talking about BLM or whoever, there HAS TO BE some kind of incentive to play that class. It's in the name: selfish DPS. Without top DPS, it's just selfish. It's not complicated. Yes you can be hardcore and optimize it to achieve your 1-2% extra dps, but that's unrealistic given the average player will never be hardcore. Again, that's why the distinctions exist.

because in the game blm competes for the caster spot. And unlike the other casters, it can also compete for the second spot of melee.

Being able to compete with melee is an absolutely terrible incentive to play a ranged caster. "Don't worry, you can do as much damage as melee!". It should compete against any other class that does high damage. Being a ranged glass cannon has obvious pros and cons that FFXIV refuses to adhere by. Glass cannons are top DPS, zero question, at the expense of mobility, vitality, and defense. In the current paradigm BLM is an ok cannon, perhaps top ish, with all of those downsides and zero partywide utility.

And it already is. The blm is a class that does a lot of damage, certainly more than other casters, and not by such an indifferent percentage. So even if it gets more damage, it will not change the situation blm already has.

I would love to see the data you like so much to show me how the completion rates are for ultimate raids over time for BLM versus every other class. I'd also like to see the data you're using to determine that the damage % differences are adequate.

[Mikey_R]

There is a reason why I initially asked what DPS metric was being used in order to come to the point made in the OP and my suspicions were correct. Many people are using rDPS to measure the damage of selfish DPS. Now, whilst it might be a nice thing to use as an initial, quick way to compare the DPS of various jobs, it also has limitations that need to be accounted for and one of those limitations is that, for jobs that offer no raid buffs, it does not properly show how much damage that job is contributing to the fight as any extra damage the job puts in when under a damage buff, is given to another job to boost their damage. To highlight this, I will give an example.

Say you have your selfish DPS going 1000 dps, a second job doing 850 and they have a 10% damage buff they can give to the raid. First, we look at what happens when you measure the jobs aDPS when under the buff:

Job 1 goes from 1000 to 1100 DPS;
Job 2 goes from 850 to 935 DPS.

This is properly reflecting how much damage each job is contributing in a raw DPS metric, however, if we change the measure to rDPS, things change:

Job 1 goes from 1000 to 1000 DPS;
Job 2 goes from 850 to 1035 DPS.

In this scenario, it seems like the second DPS is the one contributing more, despite the fact it got an extra 100 dps for 'free' as it was Job 1 that put the damage into that buff.

So the question is, is it really fair to judge a selfish DPS based on only their rDPS when their strength lies in their aDPS? This is also why it is really hard to compare DPS jobs to each other when you have a selfish DPS in the mix as the buffers benefit more from rDPS, whereas the selfish benefit more from aDPS.

[Turtledeluxe]

There is a reason why I initially asked what DPS metric was being used in order to come to the point made in the OP and my suspicions were correct. Many people are using rDPS to measure the damage of selfish DPS. Now, whilst it might be a nice thing to use as an initial, quick way to compare the DPS of various jobs, it also has limitations that need to be accounted for and one of those limitations is that, for jobs that offer no raid buffs, it does not properly show how much damage that job is contributing to the fight as any extra damage the job puts in when under a damage buff, is given to another job to boost their damage. To highlight this, I will give an example.

Say you have your selfish DPS going 1000 dps, a second job doing 850 and they have a 10% damage buff they can give to the raid. First, we look at what happens when you measure the jobs aDPS when under the buff:

Job 1 goes from 1000 to 1100 DPS;
Job 2 goes from 850 to 935 DPS.

This is properly reflecting how much damage each job is contributing in a raw DPS metric, however, if we change the measure to rDPS, things change:

Job 1 goes from 1000 to 1000 DPS;
Job 2 goes from 850 to 1035 DPS.

In this scenario, it seems like the second DPS is the one contributing more, despite the fact it got an extra 100 dps for 'free' as it was Job 1 that put the damage into that buff.

So the question is, is it really fair to judge a selfish DPS based on only their rDPS when their strength lies in their aDPS? This is also why it is really hard to compare DPS jobs to each other when you have a selfish DPS in the mix as the buffers benefit more from rDPS, whereas the selfish benefit more from aDPS.

So I review the logs for TOP, which I assume is what is being used a reference in this case (keeping in mind I don't believe job design should solely be based on high level content). Even looking at BLM aDPS, what it's telling me is that BLM has to try very hard to be top dps, and even then, it isn't top dps quite comfortably. As to your question, I don't see how you can divorce all the metrics. It's also about player perceptions and how it feels to play the role in a group. As a BLM main I can tell you it feels like that graph, yes, with the semi high upside and decent capacity for downside. And the capacity for downside is all the more relevant because BLM doesn't have any other redeeming qualities.

Overall the data for TOP just shows what has been said by the original post-- Summoner is absolutely crushing BLM because being seen as viable and/or essential isn't just about DPS in isolation. It's about damage, ultility, and mobility in raids. If BLM is going to focus on one or two of those it needs to them extremely well pretty easily. It's easy to have utility or even mobility-- you just have a bufff, spell or action.

[CelestiCer]

How is every player here suddenly a top Percentile BLM...

Y'all can join us peasants with our Jobs being reworked, simplified, our skills getting deleted. BLM's are free to join us. You get to keep your gameplay, you're Yoshi P's lovechild and somehow still complain about the top DPS percentile performance that most of y'all never get to see. I see BLM's steamroll players, SAM's included in PF environments where people really do not want to adjust to give BLM's their positions. Even the recent Omega Ultimate, BLM's outshine SMN's in performance due to the nature of their skill-kits. And if players can take BLM's to Ultimate and perform there? anything else below it is not going to be impossible.

I am genuinely curious... in what way is BLM suffering? what recent Job changes are BLM suffering from like the majority of us? what content could you not clear where you took BLM to in 6.35? and have you reached the peak percentage to witness the differences between the top percentile performances y'all are making such a mole hill out of?

[Ggwppino]

snip

He is a selfish dps and does much more percentage damage than his counterparts who could "steal" the spot from him.

Currently
pros: does *much* more damage than the others casters; has double chance to play because he has 2 spots available instead of one.
cons: doesnt have ress(?).

Increase his damage:
pros: does *much* more damage than others casters, but even more; has double chance to play because he has 2 spots available instead of one.
cons: doesnt have ress(?).

If you increase the damage to the blm, you are doing it for a status symbol and not for actual usefulness. If you increase damage to blm, it is only because you want to see the bar on fflog first with considerable detachment even with melee and not for actual utility.

Does it bother you to see on fflog your 99 being beaten by 99 rpr for 100 more rdps even though you put in three times as much effort? That's okay, I can understand it to some extent, but don't say that the other 2 casters make the same dps as the blm, because that's not true.

Who should complain about the damage first of all, should be the rdm who is generally under a class that the major optimization is to not accidentally press an already summoned elemental.

[Mikey_R]

So I review the logs for TOP, which I assume is what is being used a reference in this case (keeping in mind I don't believe job design should solely be based on high level content).

Both ultimate fights, current savage tier (all fights) and most recent extreme trial as that is the only content that FFlogs breaks down into rDPS/aDPS/nDPS.

Even looking at BLM aDPS, what it's telling me is that BLM has to try very hard to be top dps, and even then, it isn't top dps quite comfortably.

I never said it had to be top, just that only basing DPS off of one metric as opposed to taking all aspects into account means you will miss things that would otherwise show with a more appropriate measure, which I have also stated is difficult because of the nature of the DPS role as a whole.

As to your question, I don't see how you can divorce all the metrics.

I never said you had to divorce all metrics, I just said you had to be careful when comparing DPS metrics.

It's also about player perceptions and how it feels to play the role in a group. As a BLM main I can tell you it feels like that graph, yes, with the semi high upside and decent capacity for downside. And the capacity for downside is all the more relevant because BLM doesn't have any other redeeming qualities.

How a player feels when playing the job has no impact on the DPS metric and so is not relevant to the discussion of whether BLM should get a DPS boost or not.

Overall the data for TOP just shows what has been said by the original post-- Summoner is absolutely crushing BLM because being seen as viable and/or essential isn't just about DPS in isolation. It's about damage, ultility, and mobility in raids. If BLM is going to focus on one or two of those it needs to them extremely well pretty easily. It's easy to have utility or even mobility-- you just have a bufff, spell or action.

Yes, a job having utility can make it a viable option over another, I never disputed that. All my post was saying was to be careful when comparing DPS values between jobs as there is an inherent bias towards one job or another based on whether you use rDPS or aDPS as a measure.

[Turtledeluxe]

He is a selfish dps and does much more percentage damage than his counterparts who could "steal" the spot from him.

BLM has 11% dps in the current raid, doesn't sound a spotlight at all. You're just being childish and using my own point--- you don't want classes that currently devalue BLM by having dream combos of utility, mobility, AND viable damage to continue dominating the spotlight. You can lose your attitude now.

Currently
pros: does *much* more damage than the others casters

Yet isn't even close to meta....

If you increase the damage to the blm, you are doing it for a status symbol and not for actual usefulness. If you increase damage to blm, it is only because you want to see the bar on fflog first with considerable detachment even with melee and not for actual utility.

You keep being dismissive and rude over "not having res" as though that's some small thing. Res would immediate raise the rates of BLM participation in the latest raid. I literally don't use stupid parse logs, I don't track my own DPS, and I don't do ultimates. I'm telling you that the question the TC is asking is valid and I don't see you answering it other than "well they might take a melee spot". That isn't answer so stop saying it.

And no it does not need considerable detachment from a SAM as the respective equivalent selfish dps. It isn't about being vastly superior to melee. But the fact you mentioned it indicates to me you're of that crowd that views tampering with Meleewalker as some kind of grave sin.

[Turtledeluxe]

How is every player here suddenly a top Percentile BLM...

Y'all can join us peasants with our Jobs being reworked, simplified, our skills getting deleted. BLM's are free to join us. You get to keep your gameplay, you're Yoshi P's lovechild and somehow still complain about the top DPS percentile performance that most of y'all never get to see. I see BLM's steamroll players, SAM's included in PF environments where people really do not want to adjust to give BLM's their positions. Even the recent Omega Ultimate, BLM's outshine SMN's in performance due to the nature of their skill-kits. And if players can take BLM's to Ultimate and perform there? anything else below it is not going to be impossible.

I am genuinely curious... in what way is BLM suffering? what recent Job changes are BLM suffering from like the majority of us? what content could you not clear where you took BLM to in 6.35? and have you reached the peak percentage to witness the differences between the top percentile performances y'all are making such a mole hill out of?

This is whataboutism. Make a thread to complain about your class and I will support you. The dev team has no idea what they're doing. Also your praise of BLM rings hollow according to the data, sorry. Summoners are incredibly utilized. I couldn't possibly care less if what you're saying is that you expect a Summon to be dominating DPS-- I'm sorry but you don't deserve that, not at all, unless your utility is adjusted correspondingly to be nonexistent. To be honest your post just proves my point-- everyone is clamoring for DPS for the exact reason mentioned previously, to be at the top of the board for no reason. Selfish DPS should be at the top because that's literally all they are good for, period.

The gutting of job gameplay is completely separate problem and has nothing to do with BLM being redundant in parties. And just to emphasize-- you are answering a question with a question which is not an argument. TC asked a question, and you cannot answer it, so you are throwing out herrings.

[Turtledeluxe]

I never said you had to divorce all metrics, I just said you had to be careful when comparing DPS metrics.

What's the point of stating this when it's obvious that someone should consider things carefully before saying them?

How a player feels when playing the job has no impact on the DPS metric and so is not relevant to the discussion of whether BLM should get a DPS boost or not.

You are confused. It matters how players feel about the class, whether they are the class or not. And BLM looks and feels redundant given that it does good damage under very specific conditions and depending on player expertise. That's why the thread exists, and you cannot form an answer to it except "well aDPS..."

Yes, a job having utility can make it a viable option over another, I never disputed that.

Exactly.

[Mikey_R]

1. What's the point of stating this when it's obvious that someone should consider things carefully before saying them?

2. You are confused. It matters how players feel about the class, whether they are the class or not. And BLM looks and feels redundant given that it does good damage under very specific conditions and depending on player expertise. That's why the thread exists, and you cannot form an answer to it except "well aDPS..."

1. Because people do not, plain and simple, especially when it comes to comparing different jobs DPS values.

2. No, how you feel playing the job does not count. That is a purely subjective view which you are using to try and make an objective point. The whole topic started with the premise that other DPS jobs do the same or more DPS than BLM, which goes into the point I make that you cannot compare DPS disparity based solely on rDPS alone, which is what I suspect the OP done. That is the only reason for my post and the only reason why I even made the first post in the topic as I wanted to see if they based their premise on faulty reasoning.

If you notice, I have made no mention on the state of BLM or any job at all. All I have done is stated, you cannot reliably compare 2 DPS if they have different functions (selfish/buffer) with each other showing an example where results can be skewed one way or another. I do not care if people want to make BLM stronger or weaker, add more utility or whatever, I just wanted to put the point across that you have to look at more than just rDPS to make job comparisons when you want to say one is underperforming compared to the rest.