BLM DPS

[Mikey_R]

I don’t think there is a rule in the game that 2 melee is mandatory.

Never said it wa mandatory to have 2 melee DPS, just that fights were designed around 2 melee DPS. Slight, but important difference.

I asked if bringing its DPS above SAM would break the game. That's different from saying it should absolutely be about SAM. If you read my other posts you can see that I just feel BLM should meet SAM, at minimum, and that's only one possible option. I see from newer posts you are trying to claim this breaks the game, but others are disputing you. So I am still left wondering-- why exactly can't BLM do the same damage as SAM or better?

I never said break the game, I said break the balance. Subtle but important difference. I also talked about why buffing BLM to SAM levels would be problematic, I will admit however that, whilst it is clear in my head, I found it hard to articulate into words that properly expressed the meaning behind it. With that said, in the same post I do acknowledge that IF fight designs continue as they are, then they would need to look at job balancing as a whole, which would include buffing BLM to SAM levels, assuming all jobs are having essentially 100% uptime.

Also regarding your comments on utility-- I never said utility makes jobs easier. I also didn't comment whatsoever on its relation to DPS (i.e. you have to take time to cast res). I'm not sure why you're going into all this. Homogenization has nothing to do with jobs? Huh? People talking about job homogenization every day. In the threads I linked, it's one of the reasons people citied for not giving res to BLM. You and other users are saying res is useless, res is meaningless, then why is it so valued for prog, why do users constantly talk about it, why were people defending it from BLM in the threads I linked?

I mean if you're all correct, why did TC ask this question? Why does this topic periodically come up? It's because something about it just doesn't make sense-- not because players suck at the game or the class.

I never made the claim that job utility makes a job easier, I said fights cannot be designed around a utility unless every job in that specific role happens to have that utility and so you can guarantee that the party has it. Because of this, things are added to every job and that is what causes the homogenisation. I also never said jobs have nothing to do with homogenisation, I said a job's DPS and ease of play has nothing to do with homogenisation, as a direct response to this comment you made:

Because it is obvious from the way you talk about the game like it is a job or a science experiment that min maxing is your thing, and the hyper focusing on that is what has led to the obsession with dps across all roles and in part played a role in their homogenization. <b>Part of the homogenization isn't just smoothing out the gameplay, it's making any given classes DPS higher and easier to dish out.</b>

Homogenisation, by it's very definition, is making things uniform or similar. I will admit, I misspoke slightly. If fight design is going the way it is, then jobs will need to be homogenous with their damage, this does not necessarily mean just boosting a jobs damage, this could also be reducing it, as long as they are roughly similar. However, noone is going to complain that this is homogenisation as it is just game balance. The biggest homogenisation of EW is the 2 minute meta, everything fits it now. Every job has the same burst profile, every job is homogenised in that way. However, making jobs easier to play is not homogenisation as you aren't making it similar o another job, just changing it.

As for res, I never said it was meaningless. I even stated that it was different to the other utilities that jobs bring. I was specifically talking about things like Magick Barrier. RDM is the only caster with a raid wide damage mitigation tool, however, despite that, they cannot make Magick Barrier a utility that is required to clear a fight as SMN and BLM do not have something similar. So, do you take RDM for the situational raid mitigation and res and lower damage, or, the BLM with much higher damage but does not have these tools. There will be a point where BLM's damage is too high for the utility and lower DPS of RDM to matter, so BLM is picked over RDM more often than not.

As for Res being useful in prog, that is mainly so statics can hopefully have a glimpse at the next mechanic and start formulating strats based on that knowledge. if BLM has high damage, this might still be the case, but in alot of cases, they will switch to BLM for the higher damage output to make DPS checks easier. They aren't going to be dying so the res utility in this case is going to be wasted, so there is no point. Context in this case matters.

As for why this keeps coming up, it is because people have a fundamental misunderstanding on how to use FFlogs. they see the rDPS value, see that, despite BLM being toted as a high damage caster, it appears to lag behind, it isn't top, so there must be something wrong with the damage, despite the fact that rDPS is the absolute wrong metric to judge a selfish DPS job. This is why I gave a brief explanation in post #22 in the difference between rDPS and aDPS to show the flaws in looking at just one metric.

I also want to comment on why you keep saying BLM is a glass cannon. It takes the same damage as the other casters and, whilst SMN has a better personal mitigation tool, RDM has no personal mitigation outside Magick Barrier. So why do you keep saying this?

[Turtledeluxe]

IF fight designs continue as they are, then they would need to look at job balancing as a whole, which would include buffing BLM to SAM levels, assuming all jobs are having essentially 100% uptime.

Well great.

The biggest homogenisation of EW is the 2 minute meta, everything fits it now. Every job has the same burst profile, every job is homogenised in that way. However, making jobs easier to play is not homogenisation as you aren't making it similar o another job, just changing it.

I was more using homogenization to refer to the fact that people perceive making the classes similar as homogenization. So if we give Res to BLM, that's homogenisation as it takes away something unique from other casters.

There will be a point where BLM's damage is too high for the utility and lower DPS of RDM to matter, so BLM is picked over RDM more often than not.

So currently RDM is not played more in all modes of content than BLM?

Context in this case matters.

I'm not disputing that some groups use BLM. I can see it in the logs.

they see the rDPS value, see that, despite BLM being toted as a high damage caster, it appears to lag behind

I am so glad you brought this up because even in your preferred metric BLM is more comparable to a Machinist than Samurai. It's very strange to me that you have no issue with the dramatic difference between SAM and well, everyone else. What benefit does BLM have that justifies such a difference in DPS from SAM? Why does SAM need to be top DPS? Riddle me this?

I also want to comment on why you keep saying BLM is a glass cannon. It takes the same damage as the other casters and, whilst SMN has a better personal mitigation tool, RDM has no personal mitigation outside Magick Barrier. So why do you keep saying this?

Uhh because those classes are mobile and BLM is less mobile? I was literally in Limsa yesterday and a RDM was talking about how they'd never play BLM because you need to stay still so much. It's a downside I've only ever seen so glaringly ignored in this topic. Yes, BLM has mobility options that are okay, but it's not even comparable to running around all the time. How is it not a glass cannon? To maximize damage it needs to be stationary, it has low defense/HP, and it does high damage. I've used it just for shorthand to denote that. Cannons don't run around...lol..and not to circle back but this is a reminder that optimizing BLM does take effort, which is why the player expectation is there when they look at the logs that you ask to them to look at (I had never even see that website until you referenced it) and why it's so surprising.

I feel like you're about to tell me Blm is the most mobile class and I just...no pls...

[Mikey_R]

I am so glad you brought this up because even in your preferred metric BLM is more comparable to a Machinist than Samurai. It's very strange to me that you have no issue with the dramatic difference between SAM and well, everyone else. What benefit does BLM have that justifies such a difference in DPS from SAM? Why does SAM need to be top DPS? Riddle me this?

You keep missing that BLM is not competing for a melee slot, it is competing for a caster slot, therefore, it is balanced against the other casters. The fact it can do the same damage as a melee is irrelevant. As for why SAM is top, SAM is a melee, they naturally do more damage than casters, so, for SAm to be a selfish melee DPS, it has to do more than the melee, which puts it at the top. Simple.

Uhh because those classes are mobile and BLM is less mobile? I was literally in Limsa yesterday and a RDM was talking about how they'd never play BLM because you need to stay still so much. It's a downside I've only ever seen so glaringly ignored in this topic. Yes, BLM has mobility options that are okay, but it's not even comparable to running around all the time. How is it not a glass cannon? To maximize damage it needs to be stationary, it has low defense/HP, and it does high damage. I've used it just for shorthand to denote that. Cannons don't run around...lol..and not to circle back but this is a reminder that optimizing BLM does take effort, which is why the player expectation is there when they look at the logs that you ask to them to look at (I had never even see that website until you referenced it) and why it's so surprising.

People always underestimate how mobile BLM actually is, between Triplecast, Swiftcast, 2 Sharpcasts, 2 Xenoglossy and at least 1 Ice Paradox, per minute, that is already 9 casts per minute that are instant cast (the actual is higher as an FYI) and this is ignoring Amplifier every 2 minutes, Fire 3 and Blizzard 3 have very short casts that allow for extra mobility there, you also have Aetherial Manipulation to instantly take you to someone else and Between the Lines to go back to your Ley Lines. So, when played right, BLM is very mobile, more mobile than many people give it credit for.

As for defence/HP, it has exactly the same as the other casters. So, actions aside, they have the same defensive profile.

Yes, BLM is harder to use than the other casters, but that is rewarded by being the best caster in terms of DPS there is, without question. And, just to point out, I did mention earlier that people's ignorance on how to use/understand the data on FFlogs does not mean they can use that ignorance to try and justify balance changes. This is why you need to properly read and understand the data that is presented, the pros and cons of each measurement and how each one is limiting the view of the total picture.

[Turtledeluxe]

You keep missing that BLM is not competing for a melee slot, it is competing for a caster slot, therefore, it is balanced against the other casters. The fact it can do the same damage as a melee is irrelevant. As for why SAM is top, SAM is a melee, they naturally do more damage than casters, so, for SAm to be a selfish melee DPS, it has to do more than the melee, which puts it at the top. Simple.

Melee naturally do more damage than casters? How did it take the entire topic for you to finally point this out? Can you please explain what you mean by this and provide some kind of source? You say in your own post, BLM is a challenge to use but you're saying its OK that it's not comparable to SAM basically because other casters will cry? Then the solution here is to nerf SAM. Very simple.

People always underestimate how mobile BLM actually is

Well that's part of what makes a good BLM vs a an average or bad one. IMO, even though I do not play Ultimate content and have no stake in leaderboards, for the sake of argument, in all modes of content, a BLM who is truly utilizing the class and playing well should have top DPS. As the data shows it's not like every single BLM is pushing out peak damage anyway. There is a lot of room to be a non-peak BLM, in fact more than other classes if I am not mistaken.

[Mikey_R]

Melee naturally do more damage than casters? How did it take the entire topic for you to finally point this out? Can you please explain what you mean by this and provide some kind of source? You say in your own post, BLM is a challenge to use but you're saying its OK that it's not comparable to SAM basically because other casters will cry? Then the solution here is to nerf SAM. Very simple.

Each DPS role is designed to do a specific amount of damage compared to the other roles. Melee > Caster > P-ranged. This stems from the perceived difficulty in keeping uptime. [NOTE: I know this isn't the case with more recent fights and this is a problem with fight design in general. If this is the direction they want to go in for the future, then all jobs need to be looked at.] The harder it is to keep 100% uptime, the more damage the job is designed to do, which also meant you lost more damage when you couldn't hit something, which helped to balance things out more.

i have stated this in a previous post, which you seemed to have missed, which I also point out WHY making BLM so strong would be an issue (post #53). I did also explain in a later post that I do find it hard to articulate the point in words, but hopefully the thought process is there for someone to try and follow.

Also, nerfing SAM causes an issue where people wouldn't take SAM. This has already been a steep learning curve for them during Stormblood where Samurai flip flopped between being way too strong and too weak.

Well that's part of what makes a good BLM vs a an average or bad one. IMO, even though I do not play Ultimate content and have no stake in leaderboards, for the sake of argument, in all modes of content, a BLM who is truly utilizing the class and playing well should have top DPS. As the data shows it's not like every single BLM is pushing out peak damage anyway. There is a lot of room to be a non-peak BLM, in fact more than other classes if I am not mistaken.

You keep failing to answer WHY it should be top. I can make the same reasoning behind every job and come to the same conclusions. If I am fully utilising Monk, and playing well, why should I not be top DPS? If I am fully utilising Dancer, and playing well, why should I not be top DPS? If I am fully utilising Astrologian and playing well, why should I not be top DPS?

This is why you need the data to back up claims and at the moment, the data says BLM is where it should be.

And if all you want is the questions from the OP answered, here they are:

1.so the only raison we should have a BLM in a group is for it's BIG DPS right ?

2. But if all the others DPS class do as much (and often more) DPS as BLM do, what is the purpose to have a (poor) glass canon in the group like a BLM ??

So, to counter that, what do you think of the idea that BLM shoud do, let's say, 10% more DPS that the other class and SAM a 5% ? (it's harder to play BLM right and can't cast when moving)

What are your thoughts ?

1. Yes.

2. Because the data being used is the wrong data to accurately determine where BLM's place in the DPS charts is, which gives a false understanding of balance.

3. No reason, its DPS is where it should be.

4. My thoughts are the wrong data was used to come to the wrong conclusion. Which is also why I tried to find out what they were basing this all on in the very second post of this topic.

[Turtledeluxe]

i have stated this in a previous post, which you seemed to have missed, which I also point out WHY making BLM so strong would be an issue (post #53). I did also explain in a later post that I do find it hard to articulate the point in words, but hopefully the thought process is there for someone to try and follow.

Also, nerfing SAM causes an issue where people wouldn't take SAM. This has already been a steep learning curve for them during Stormblood where Samurai flip flopped between being way too strong and too weak.



You keep failing to answer WHY it should be top. I can make the same reasoning behind every job and come to the same conclusions. If I am fully utilising Monk, and playing well, why should I not be top DPS? If I am fully utilising Dancer, and playing well, why should I not be top DPS? If I am fully utilising Astrologian and playing well, why should I not be top DPS?

No, it's just that I am following your guidance of using logic and you don't like it. The selfish DPS category as it turns out is not separated by role. You separate it by choice because "won't someone think of the Samurai? The SAM worked so hard for this!". Being equivalent DPS to a BLM does not mean people will pick BLM over SAM-- SAM is still top DPS and easy to prog with. It still has a more popular play style.

You cannot use this logic for other classes and roles. Are they selfish DPS or not? Saying a RDM is selfish DPS is changing what it is-- it is a hybrid class that brings other things to the fight a BLM does not. All a BLM and SAM bring to a fight is DPS and there is zero reason why their DPS should not be equivalent that you have provided except, frankly, your feelings.

Welcome to the world of posting based on your feelings. #nerfSAM

[Mikey_R]

No, it's just that I am following your guidance of using logic and you don't like it. The selfish DPS category as it turns out is not separated by role. You separate it by choice because "won't someone think of the Samurai? The SAM worked so hard for this!". Being equivalent DPS to a BLM does not mean people will pick BLM over SAM-- SAM is still top DPS and easy to prog with. It still has a more popular play style.

You cannot use this logic for other classes and roles. Are they selfish DPS or not? Saying a RDM is selfish DPS is changing what it is-- it is a hybrid class that brings other things to the fight a BLM does not. All a BLM and SAM bring to a fight is DPS and there is zero reason why their DPS should not be equivalent that you have provided except, frankly, your feelings.

Welcome to the world of posting based on your feelings. #nerfSAM

You have completely, either by choice or just forgetting, failed to take in what I have said in various posts.

DPS are split into Melee, Casters and P-Ranged. They each have a slot in the party, generally with it being 2 melee, 1 caster and 1 p-ranged. SAM is a melee and therefore competes with MNK, DRG, RPR and NIN, BLM is a caster and so competes with the caster slot with SMN and RDM, MCH is a P-ranged, and so competes with the p-ranged with BRD and DNC.

Each role has a set amount of DPS they are expected to bring, this means SAM has to bring enough DPS to justify using it over the others, whilst not bringing too much to invalidate the other melee roles. BLM has to bring enough DPS to justify using it over the other casters whilst not invalidating the others, MCH has to bring enough DPS to justify using it over DNC and BRD.

At no point is the BLM infringing on the SAM slot in the party, as there is no crossover there. You CANNOT compare the DPS of the 2, ignore everything else, and make a claim. I have said several times that balance is a nuanced thing, and several times, you keep ignoring components that define why something is balanced in the way it is.

Going onto if they are selfish or not, yes, they are, but that is half the answer. SAM is a selfish melee, BLM is a selfish caster. The role they take in the DPS paradigm is just as important as how they do the damage.

Now again, if BLM does too much damage in the role of caster, you invalidate the other 2 casters. Make it too weak, then it isn't worth bringing over the other 2. It is a very hard balancing act which the dev team has already been through with SAM in Stormblood.

None of what I have said is based on my feelings. I have no stake in BLM or SAM, I only care about the balance. It is also ironic that you initially claimed I was being too obsessive over it, treating it as an experiment and now I'm using feelings? My reasoning has not changed, my arguments have not changed, so, which is it? Am I following the logic and going through everything with a fine tooth comb to make sure what I say is as accurate as I can make it, or, am I just saying things based on my personal feelings. These are 2 opposing views so I realistically cannot be both at the same time. If you want to change my mind, you have to bring a convincing argument and no, fight design is not one (I have already addressed this as well) as, until SE decide that they want to change how they balance their jobs, then we have to go by the framework set.