BLM DPS

[Mikey_R]

There is a reason why I initially asked what DPS metric was being used in order to come to the point made in the OP and my suspicions were correct. Many people are using rDPS to measure the damage of selfish DPS. Now, whilst it might be a nice thing to use as an initial, quick way to compare the DPS of various jobs, it also has limitations that need to be accounted for and one of those limitations is that, for jobs that offer no raid buffs, it does not properly show how much damage that job is contributing to the fight as any extra damage the job puts in when under a damage buff, is given to another job to boost their damage. To highlight this, I will give an example.

Say you have your selfish DPS going 1000 dps, a second job doing 850 and they have a 10% damage buff they can give to the raid. First, we look at what happens when you measure the jobs aDPS when under the buff:

Job 1 goes from 1000 to 1100 DPS;
Job 2 goes from 850 to 935 DPS.

This is properly reflecting how much damage each job is contributing in a raw DPS metric, however, if we change the measure to rDPS, things change:

Job 1 goes from 1000 to 1000 DPS;
Job 2 goes from 850 to 1035 DPS.

In this scenario, it seems like the second DPS is the one contributing more, despite the fact it got an extra 100 dps for 'free' as it was Job 1 that put the damage into that buff.

So the question is, is it really fair to judge a selfish DPS based on only their rDPS when their strength lies in their aDPS? This is also why it is really hard to compare DPS jobs to each other when you have a selfish DPS in the mix as the buffers benefit more from rDPS, whereas the selfish benefit more from aDPS.

[Turtledeluxe]

There is a reason why I initially asked what DPS metric was being used in order to come to the point made in the OP and my suspicions were correct. Many people are using rDPS to measure the damage of selfish DPS. Now, whilst it might be a nice thing to use as an initial, quick way to compare the DPS of various jobs, it also has limitations that need to be accounted for and one of those limitations is that, for jobs that offer no raid buffs, it does not properly show how much damage that job is contributing to the fight as any extra damage the job puts in when under a damage buff, is given to another job to boost their damage. To highlight this, I will give an example.

Say you have your selfish DPS going 1000 dps, a second job doing 850 and they have a 10% damage buff they can give to the raid. First, we look at what happens when you measure the jobs aDPS when under the buff:

Job 1 goes from 1000 to 1100 DPS;
Job 2 goes from 850 to 935 DPS.

This is properly reflecting how much damage each job is contributing in a raw DPS metric, however, if we change the measure to rDPS, things change:

Job 1 goes from 1000 to 1000 DPS;
Job 2 goes from 850 to 1035 DPS.

In this scenario, it seems like the second DPS is the one contributing more, despite the fact it got an extra 100 dps for 'free' as it was Job 1 that put the damage into that buff.

So the question is, is it really fair to judge a selfish DPS based on only their rDPS when their strength lies in their aDPS? This is also why it is really hard to compare DPS jobs to each other when you have a selfish DPS in the mix as the buffers benefit more from rDPS, whereas the selfish benefit more from aDPS.

So I review the logs for TOP, which I assume is what is being used a reference in this case (keeping in mind I don't believe job design should solely be based on high level content). Even looking at BLM aDPS, what it's telling me is that BLM has to try very hard to be top dps, and even then, it isn't top dps quite comfortably. As to your question, I don't see how you can divorce all the metrics. It's also about player perceptions and how it feels to play the role in a group. As a BLM main I can tell you it feels like that graph, yes, with the semi high upside and decent capacity for downside. And the capacity for downside is all the more relevant because BLM doesn't have any other redeeming qualities.

Overall the data for TOP just shows what has been said by the original post-- Summoner is absolutely crushing BLM because being seen as viable and/or essential isn't just about DPS in isolation. It's about damage, ultility, and mobility in raids. If BLM is going to focus on one or two of those it needs to them extremely well pretty easily. It's easy to have utility or even mobility-- you just have a bufff, spell or action.

[Mikey_R]

So I review the logs for TOP, which I assume is what is being used a reference in this case (keeping in mind I don't believe job design should solely be based on high level content).

Both ultimate fights, current savage tier (all fights) and most recent extreme trial as that is the only content that FFlogs breaks down into rDPS/aDPS/nDPS.

Even looking at BLM aDPS, what it's telling me is that BLM has to try very hard to be top dps, and even then, it isn't top dps quite comfortably.

I never said it had to be top, just that only basing DPS off of one metric as opposed to taking all aspects into account means you will miss things that would otherwise show with a more appropriate measure, which I have also stated is difficult because of the nature of the DPS role as a whole.

As to your question, I don't see how you can divorce all the metrics.

I never said you had to divorce all metrics, I just said you had to be careful when comparing DPS metrics.

It's also about player perceptions and how it feels to play the role in a group. As a BLM main I can tell you it feels like that graph, yes, with the semi high upside and decent capacity for downside. And the capacity for downside is all the more relevant because BLM doesn't have any other redeeming qualities.

How a player feels when playing the job has no impact on the DPS metric and so is not relevant to the discussion of whether BLM should get a DPS boost or not.

Overall the data for TOP just shows what has been said by the original post-- Summoner is absolutely crushing BLM because being seen as viable and/or essential isn't just about DPS in isolation. It's about damage, ultility, and mobility in raids. If BLM is going to focus on one or two of those it needs to them extremely well pretty easily. It's easy to have utility or even mobility-- you just have a bufff, spell or action.

Yes, a job having utility can make it a viable option over another, I never disputed that. All my post was saying was to be careful when comparing DPS values between jobs as there is an inherent bias towards one job or another based on whether you use rDPS or aDPS as a measure.

[Turtledeluxe]

I never said you had to divorce all metrics, I just said you had to be careful when comparing DPS metrics.

What's the point of stating this when it's obvious that someone should consider things carefully before saying them?

How a player feels when playing the job has no impact on the DPS metric and so is not relevant to the discussion of whether BLM should get a DPS boost or not.

You are confused. It matters how players feel about the class, whether they are the class or not. And BLM looks and feels redundant given that it does good damage under very specific conditions and depending on player expertise. That's why the thread exists, and you cannot form an answer to it except "well aDPS..."

Yes, a job having utility can make it a viable option over another, I never disputed that.

Exactly.

[Mikey_R]

1. What's the point of stating this when it's obvious that someone should consider things carefully before saying them?

2. You are confused. It matters how players feel about the class, whether they are the class or not. And BLM looks and feels redundant given that it does good damage under very specific conditions and depending on player expertise. That's why the thread exists, and you cannot form an answer to it except "well aDPS..."

1. Because people do not, plain and simple, especially when it comes to comparing different jobs DPS values.

2. No, how you feel playing the job does not count. That is a purely subjective view which you are using to try and make an objective point. The whole topic started with the premise that other DPS jobs do the same or more DPS than BLM, which goes into the point I make that you cannot compare DPS disparity based solely on rDPS alone, which is what I suspect the OP done. That is the only reason for my post and the only reason why I even made the first post in the topic as I wanted to see if they based their premise on faulty reasoning.

If you notice, I have made no mention on the state of BLM or any job at all. All I have done is stated, you cannot reliably compare 2 DPS if they have different functions (selfish/buffer) with each other showing an example where results can be skewed one way or another. I do not care if people want to make BLM stronger or weaker, add more utility or whatever, I just wanted to put the point across that you have to look at more than just rDPS to make job comparisons when you want to say one is underperforming compared to the rest.

[Turtledeluxe]

1. Because people do not, plain and simple, especially when it comes to comparing different jobs DPS values.

2. No, how you feel playing the job does not count. That is a purely subjective view which you are using to try and make an objective point. The whole topic started with the premise that other DPS jobs do the same or more DPS than BLM.

Other jobs do do the same DPS as blm or more depending on the content and the fight. And if they don't they're so viable in other ways that it doesn't matter. Also no, I said player perceptions and how the class feels to play matter from the beginning. I restated it differently because you are either confused by this or you don't think it matters. Maybe that's why the game is so broken and people hyper focus on a handful of classes to clear content easily. And to be clear this isn't just an issue with BLM. I just think the devs are on the same wavelength as you and that is unfortunate beduase it's homogenizing jobs and dps, and that's dumb.

And this is fault of over obssessed players who have made dps the most important thing and equated it to being "fun". DPS is a role, not fun. Fun is playing your role and doing it well. Fun is being essential to a party because your class brings something unique to the fight. Being the best dps is meaningless aside from selfish dps (which is two classes) because it's the sole metric by which they are measured.

[Mikey_R]

Other jobs do do the same DPS as blm or more depending on the content and the fight. And if they don't they're so viable in other ways that it doesn't matter.

It should only be compared to casters, of which BLM is higher in damage in both rDPS AND aDPS compared to both SMN AND RDM. If a party wants to replace the damage of BLM for the utility of the other 2, they are free to do so.

Also no, I said player perceptions and how the class feels to play matter from the beginning. I restated it differently because you are either confused by this or you don't think it matters. Maybe that's why the game is so broken and people hyper focus on a handful of classes to clear content easily. And to be clear this isn't just an issue with BLM. I just think the devs are on the same wavelength as you and that is unfortunate beduase it's homogenizing jobs and dps, and that's dumb.

Again, how a job feels to plays has no bearing on it's performance. How people view BLM has no bearing on its performance. I also have no idea how you got from my post clarifying the difference between rDPS and aDPS and how they can potentially be misleading to making the claim I/others hyper focus on a job or that this is the reason for job homogenisation. This is starting to go way out of bounds of the scope of the discussion, which is all about BLM DPS and whether it is an issue or not.

And this is fault of over obssessed players who have made dps the most important thing and equated it to being "fun". DPS is a role, not fun. Fun is playing your role and doing it well. Fun is being essential to a party because your class brings something unique to the fight. Being the best dps is meaningless aside from selfish dps (which is two classes) because it's the sole metric by which they are measured.

And again, where has this come from. Noone has started that more DPS equates to fun. How a job feels to play is what is considered fun and for the majority of the community, they do not even care about the jobs performance in the higher end content. All they care about is how fun the job is to play.

However, lets also make a comparison. Looking at rDPS, SAM tends to sit on the lower end of the DPS chart, however, in aDPS, it dominates. This is a similar situation to BLM, except BLM tops the caster charts in both rDPS and aDPS, however, you do not see people wanting SAM's damage to be buffed (unless I have missed it). If you want my absolute, honest opinion, BLM's damage is fine where it is, it does not need buffing. It does the damage it needs to do for the role it fits into (caster DPS).