BLM DPS

[Bubos123]

I don’t think there is a rule in the game that 2 melee is mandatory. Could you please point out? Again, a standard composition is 1 melee, 1 p-ranged and 1 caster, after that you have got all the attribute, leaving the 4th dps position free to choose.

“All DPS mechanics are designed to be tackled by 2 melee, 1 caster and 1 p-range. Whilst you can replace a melee with a different role, that doesn't change the fact it was designed to be done with a melee.” This is not an evidence that 2 melee is mandatory. Since you can replace one melee with caster/p-ranged, it’s designed for a standard comp, and 2 melee + 1 p-ranged+1 caster is just one case of that.

However, what you said has become more true since EndWalker, especially Phase 6 in TOP, which is definitely a bad design.

No, that is fundamentally false. All DPS mechanics are designed to be tackled by 2 melee, 1 caster and 1 p-range. Whilst you can replace a melee with a different role, that doesn't change the fact it was designed to be done with a melee.

Melee keeping uptime has gotten easier and easier throughout the expansions, yes, however that doesn't change the fact that the dev team see it in a certain way and balance jobs around that that metric. This is why I also made the comment, which I have quoted above that if current design philosophy sticks, then job balance as a whole needs to be looked at.

[Turtledeluxe]

So, my question is, why do you think BLM has to do more damage than SAM? What makes you say that? What are the pros and cons to this change? How is this going to affect balance? Are you going to need to change other jobs to balance this? How do you plan to change them if that is what you want to do? So many questions from just asking a simple question and whilst the initial question only seems to look at Casters and Melee, it will also impact P-Ranged. Feelings do no come into this, just the logical steps which leads to a specific conclusion.

I asked if bringing its DPS above SAM would break the game. That's different from saying it should absolutely be above SAM. If you read my other posts you can see that I just feel BLM should meet SAM, at minimum, and that's only one possible option. I see from newer posts you are trying to claim this breaks the game, but others are disputing you. So I am still left wondering-- why exactly can't BLM do the same damage as SAM or better? I do understand btw that buffing/nerfing has a dramatic affect on gameplay/fight design yes. But also this game is 10 years old? I think they can make it work. I don't need to consider all the various things that might be impacted or need to change just because I feel BLM feels redundant-- that's what the dev team is paid to do. This feels like something you are saying simply to stifle discussion, and that's fine. But don't pretend you or I design XIV's boss fights across the entire game.

It seems to me you are saying basically we can't buff BLM because then other ranged players will be angry. I'm curious to know what was the conversation like when it was decided to make SAM the top dps? That did not seem to end the game. Hmm. Does nerfing SAM a bit also ruin the game as well? Very convenient.

Also regarding your comments on utility-- I never said utility makes jobs easier. I also didn't comment whatsoever on its relation to DPS (i.e. you have to take time to cast res). I'm not sure why you're going into all this. Homogenization has nothing to do with jobs? Huh? People talking about job homogenization every day. In the threads I linked, it's one of the reasons people citied for not giving res to BLM. You and other users are saying res is useless, res is meaningless, then why is it so valued for prog, why do users constantly talk about it, why were people defending it from BLM in the threads I linked?

I mean if you're all correct, why did TC ask this question? Why does this topic periodically come up? It's because something about it just doesn't make sense-- not because players suck at the game or the class.

[Mikey_R]

I don’t think there is a rule in the game that 2 melee is mandatory.

Never said it wa mandatory to have 2 melee DPS, just that fights were designed around 2 melee DPS. Slight, but important difference.

I asked if bringing its DPS above SAM would break the game. That's different from saying it should absolutely be about SAM. If you read my other posts you can see that I just feel BLM should meet SAM, at minimum, and that's only one possible option. I see from newer posts you are trying to claim this breaks the game, but others are disputing you. So I am still left wondering-- why exactly can't BLM do the same damage as SAM or better?

I never said break the game, I said break the balance. Subtle but important difference. I also talked about why buffing BLM to SAM levels would be problematic, I will admit however that, whilst it is clear in my head, I found it hard to articulate into words that properly expressed the meaning behind it. With that said, in the same post I do acknowledge that IF fight designs continue as they are, then they would need to look at job balancing as a whole, which would include buffing BLM to SAM levels, assuming all jobs are having essentially 100% uptime.

Also regarding your comments on utility-- I never said utility makes jobs easier. I also didn't comment whatsoever on its relation to DPS (i.e. you have to take time to cast res). I'm not sure why you're going into all this. Homogenization has nothing to do with jobs? Huh? People talking about job homogenization every day. In the threads I linked, it's one of the reasons people citied for not giving res to BLM. You and other users are saying res is useless, res is meaningless, then why is it so valued for prog, why do users constantly talk about it, why were people defending it from BLM in the threads I linked?

I mean if you're all correct, why did TC ask this question? Why does this topic periodically come up? It's because something about it just doesn't make sense-- not because players suck at the game or the class.

I never made the claim that job utility makes a job easier, I said fights cannot be designed around a utility unless every job in that specific role happens to have that utility and so you can guarantee that the party has it. Because of this, things are added to every job and that is what causes the homogenisation. I also never said jobs have nothing to do with homogenisation, I said a job's DPS and ease of play has nothing to do with homogenisation, as a direct response to this comment you made:

Because it is obvious from the way you talk about the game like it is a job or a science experiment that min maxing is your thing, and the hyper focusing on that is what has led to the obsession with dps across all roles and in part played a role in their homogenization. <b>Part of the homogenization isn't just smoothing out the gameplay, it's making any given classes DPS higher and easier to dish out.</b>

Homogenisation, by it's very definition, is making things uniform or similar. I will admit, I misspoke slightly. If fight design is going the way it is, then jobs will need to be homogenous with their damage, this does not necessarily mean just boosting a jobs damage, this could also be reducing it, as long as they are roughly similar. However, noone is going to complain that this is homogenisation as it is just game balance. The biggest homogenisation of EW is the 2 minute meta, everything fits it now. Every job has the same burst profile, every job is homogenised in that way. However, making jobs easier to play is not homogenisation as you aren't making it similar o another job, just changing it.

As for res, I never said it was meaningless. I even stated that it was different to the other utilities that jobs bring. I was specifically talking about things like Magick Barrier. RDM is the only caster with a raid wide damage mitigation tool, however, despite that, they cannot make Magick Barrier a utility that is required to clear a fight as SMN and BLM do not have something similar. So, do you take RDM for the situational raid mitigation and res and lower damage, or, the BLM with much higher damage but does not have these tools. There will be a point where BLM's damage is too high for the utility and lower DPS of RDM to matter, so BLM is picked over RDM more often than not.

As for Res being useful in prog, that is mainly so statics can hopefully have a glimpse at the next mechanic and start formulating strats based on that knowledge. if BLM has high damage, this might still be the case, but in alot of cases, they will switch to BLM for the higher damage output to make DPS checks easier. They aren't going to be dying so the res utility in this case is going to be wasted, so there is no point. Context in this case matters.

As for why this keeps coming up, it is because people have a fundamental misunderstanding on how to use FFlogs. they see the rDPS value, see that, despite BLM being toted as a high damage caster, it appears to lag behind, it isn't top, so there must be something wrong with the damage, despite the fact that rDPS is the absolute wrong metric to judge a selfish DPS job. This is why I gave a brief explanation in post #22 in the difference between rDPS and aDPS to show the flaws in looking at just one metric.

I also want to comment on why you keep saying BLM is a glass cannon. It takes the same damage as the other casters and, whilst SMN has a better personal mitigation tool, RDM has no personal mitigation outside Magick Barrier. So why do you keep saying this?

[Turtledeluxe]

IF fight designs continue as they are, then they would need to look at job balancing as a whole, which would include buffing BLM to SAM levels, assuming all jobs are having essentially 100% uptime.

Well great.

The biggest homogenisation of EW is the 2 minute meta, everything fits it now. Every job has the same burst profile, every job is homogenised in that way. However, making jobs easier to play is not homogenisation as you aren't making it similar o another job, just changing it.

I was more using homogenization to refer to the fact that people perceive making the classes similar as homogenization. So if we give Res to BLM, that's homogenisation as it takes away something unique from other casters.

There will be a point where BLM's damage is too high for the utility and lower DPS of RDM to matter, so BLM is picked over RDM more often than not.

So currently RDM is not played more in all modes of content than BLM?

Context in this case matters.

I'm not disputing that some groups use BLM. I can see it in the logs.

they see the rDPS value, see that, despite BLM being toted as a high damage caster, it appears to lag behind

I am so glad you brought this up because even in your preferred metric BLM is more comparable to a Machinist than Samurai. It's very strange to me that you have no issue with the dramatic difference between SAM and well, everyone else. What benefit does BLM have that justifies such a difference in DPS from SAM? Why does SAM need to be top DPS? Riddle me this?

I also want to comment on why you keep saying BLM is a glass cannon. It takes the same damage as the other casters and, whilst SMN has a better personal mitigation tool, RDM has no personal mitigation outside Magick Barrier. So why do you keep saying this?

Uhh because those classes are mobile and BLM is less mobile? I was literally in Limsa yesterday and a RDM was talking about how they'd never play BLM because you need to stay still so much. It's a downside I've only ever seen so glaringly ignored in this topic. Yes, BLM has mobility options that are okay, but it's not even comparable to running around all the time. How is it not a glass cannon? To maximize damage it needs to be stationary, it has low defense/HP, and it does high damage. I've used it just for shorthand to denote that. Cannons don't run around...lol..and not to circle back but this is a reminder that optimizing BLM does take effort, which is why the player expectation is there when they look at the logs that you ask to them to look at (I had never even see that website until you referenced it) and why it's so surprising.

I feel like you're about to tell me Blm is the most mobile class and I just...no pls...

[NullPointerException]

[BLM vs] all the other class that do the SAME DPS but have some advantage...(SMN, RDM, NIN, RPR, BRD, etc .....)

If you play BLM and do similar or lower damage (yes, even rdps) to a similarly geared RDM or BRD, the issue is probably user error. If you are referring to DPS in fights, perhaps look into your timeline and find places where you can squeeze out more casts, or use a different spell speed you are more comfortable with.

I'd say BLM and SAM can use some help now, but what of RDM and BRD? Those are actually the classes people are ditching now.

[Turtledeluxe]

If you play BLM and do similar or lower damage (yes, even rdps) to a similarly geared RDM or BRD, the issue is probably user error. If you are referring to DPS in fights, perhaps look into your timeline and find places where you can squeeze out more casts, or use a different spell speed you are more comfortable with.

I'd say BLM and SAM can use some help now, but what of RDM and BRD? Those are actually the classes people are ditching now.

Why would they be ditched? Do those players not like providing support? I'm genuinely curious. Are you saying people are ditching these classes because of DPS?

[Renathras]

My point is that Why shoud a group take a BLM (with a good DPS like a lot of other class, yes BUT no other advantage) vs all the other class that do the SAME DPS but have some advantage...(SMN, RDM, NIN, RPR, BRD, etc .....)

SMN, RDM, BRD, etc do not do anywhere CLOSE to the damage BLM does.

The only Jobs that do comparable damage to BLM consistently are the Melee (RPR, MNK, NIN, DRG, SAM). SAM is the only other one that only brings damage (like BLM), so the other four doing more damage is based at least partly on their party buffing.

SMN and especially RDM do significantly less damage than BLM, as do MCH, DNC, and BRD. MCH/SMN (usually one or the other is next behind the Melee/BLM pack) do something like 7-10% less damage than BLM does.

in aDPS-nDPS with the first melee (excluding the sam) it has a gap of about 5% while with casters it is 10%. In rDPS being that it has no buffs, it is in line with melee rDPS and has a 5% gap with casters. (considering the 90th). I actually find that quite fair

Agreed. By the numbers, it seems pretty fair.

Some could argue that BLM and SAM should do the most DPS - I dunno about that, as why bring any other classes if that were true? - but they already are bringing more PERSONAL DPS than their peers, and BLM is well beyond SMN and RDM. BLM is more challenging to do that damage, but that's the point of the Job. If people wanted to play a Caster with those extra utility abilities, they play SMN or RDM. If they want to just have high personal damage with a high skill ceiling, they play a BLM.

EDIT:

I'll be really curious to see what happens next expansion if another 'non-utility caster' is added. Introducing in new jobs into a role invariably brings up insecurities and turf wars (as we've seen this expansion). Whenever players start comparing subjective experiences around 'job difficulty' to leverage more dps, you invariably see a simplifying rework get introduced. ('Oh, your job is more difficult than all the rest, you say? Well, why don't we just rework that instead of giving you a dps advantage over everyone else.')

The main reason why BLM has been so consistently successful to date is specifically because its players are fairly chill about the difficulty level and don't go out of their way to demand extra advantages for it. It's never been reworked as a result. As a result, the job is allowed to keep building on what it had previously, rather than having to recover from a rework/reset. If this mindset changes, though, the job is very quickly going to come into the rework crosshairs.

We saw this exact scenario play out already with a certain melee dps job and a certain deleted action this expansion. You know where this road leads. The choice is yours.

Bingo.

We can add PLD (6.3) and SMN (6.0) to the mix as well as possibly SCH/AST (5.0). All cases of "We do more work, can't we do more damage?" responded to with "Ohhhh, so you'd like us to lighten your workload while you do the same damage, then? Excellent idea!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXNYRdCWmJU
(I can't find JUST the Great Mouse Detective quote, so you'll have to deal with a mashup two-fer. XD)

EDIT2:

Why would they be ditched? Do those players not like providing support? I'm genuinely curious. Are you saying people are ditching these classes because of DPS?

To answer this question:

Because in most content you don't need a DPS that can Raise.

In 4 mans you don't need it unless the Healer dies, and even if that happens, Tanks can practically (or outright) solo most fights without a Healer. I'm not saying "Healers aren't needed", but I am saying that you don't need a RDM or SMN.

In 24 mans, you have 6 total Healers between the 3 parties. Unless they're ALL dead, you have people to Raise in most cases without needing a DPS that can. And even in the cases you might need that (cases where the three parties are split and can't safely raise each other's people), the DPS would have to be in that party.

In HIGH END 8 man content, Raises can help you during progression to see and map out phases, but once you have your healing plan down, have seen the mechanics and worked out the buffs and debuffs (or watched someone's guide), you don't strictly need Raises anymore. Given how many "body check" mechanics there are (where there's a wipe if one person is dead at a bad time, even if they're accepting a Raise), and how both your damage and max health are reduced after a Raise (making it harder to meet DPS checks and survive raidwides without being babied by the Healers), the extra utility of Raises goes down quite a bit once you're clearing content.

So in a very real way: YES, people are, in fact, ditching those classes because of DPS.

One reason so many more SMNs were brought to TOP wasn't just "because it's easier", it has a higher total damage than RDM does. So even once you no longer need the Raises anymore (once you have the mechanics worked out and in content where a death means a wipe anyway), SMN is still more valuable than RDM exactly because it brings more damage. The main reason BLM wasn't absolutely destroying it is because the fights require a lot of MOVEMENT (which SMN also excels at), not because BLM isn't doing enough damage. It takes a skilled player to get the most out of it, and a lot of people don't realize HOW mobile BLMs are - they're actually very mobile, people just often don't realize it. BLMs are also more mobile than RDMs, and as we can see in the percentages, BLMs are more taken to TOP clears than RDMs, 16.3% BLMs vs 12.2% RDMs. SMN just has the mix of high mobility and good ENOUGH damage with ease of play, which is why it's so much higher.

If BLM were as mobile as SMN, it'd be the top Caster, hands down.

Is it fun to have a combat Raise? Yes.
If you're that clutch RDM that Verraises 22 times in Eden 4 Normal during the week of release (ask me how I know!), does that feel amazing? Sure.

But in objective terms, it's not strictly useful, or AS useful as it seems like it should be in MOST content.

[Mikey_R]

I am so glad you brought this up because even in your preferred metric BLM is more comparable to a Machinist than Samurai. It's very strange to me that you have no issue with the dramatic difference between SAM and well, everyone else. What benefit does BLM have that justifies such a difference in DPS from SAM? Why does SAM need to be top DPS? Riddle me this?

You keep missing that BLM is not competing for a melee slot, it is competing for a caster slot, therefore, it is balanced against the other casters. The fact it can do the same damage as a melee is irrelevant. As for why SAM is top, SAM is a melee, they naturally do more damage than casters, so, for SAm to be a selfish melee DPS, it has to do more than the melee, which puts it at the top. Simple.

Uhh because those classes are mobile and BLM is less mobile? I was literally in Limsa yesterday and a RDM was talking about how they'd never play BLM because you need to stay still so much. It's a downside I've only ever seen so glaringly ignored in this topic. Yes, BLM has mobility options that are okay, but it's not even comparable to running around all the time. How is it not a glass cannon? To maximize damage it needs to be stationary, it has low defense/HP, and it does high damage. I've used it just for shorthand to denote that. Cannons don't run around...lol..and not to circle back but this is a reminder that optimizing BLM does take effort, which is why the player expectation is there when they look at the logs that you ask to them to look at (I had never even see that website until you referenced it) and why it's so surprising.

People always underestimate how mobile BLM actually is, between Triplecast, Swiftcast, 2 Sharpcasts, 2 Xenoglossy and at least 1 Ice Paradox, per minute, that is already 9 casts per minute that are instant cast (the actual is higher as an FYI) and this is ignoring Amplifier every 2 minutes, Fire 3 and Blizzard 3 have very short casts that allow for extra mobility there, you also have Aetherial Manipulation to instantly take you to someone else and Between the Lines to go back to your Ley Lines. So, when played right, BLM is very mobile, more mobile than many people give it credit for.

As for defence/HP, it has exactly the same as the other casters. So, actions aside, they have the same defensive profile.

Yes, BLM is harder to use than the other casters, but that is rewarded by being the best caster in terms of DPS there is, without question. And, just to point out, I did mention earlier that people's ignorance on how to use/understand the data on FFlogs does not mean they can use that ignorance to try and justify balance changes. This is why you need to properly read and understand the data that is presented, the pros and cons of each measurement and how each one is limiting the view of the total picture.

[Turtledeluxe]

You keep missing that BLM is not competing for a melee slot, it is competing for a caster slot, therefore, it is balanced against the other casters. The fact it can do the same damage as a melee is irrelevant. As for why SAM is top, SAM is a melee, they naturally do more damage than casters, so, for SAm to be a selfish melee DPS, it has to do more than the melee, which puts it at the top. Simple.

Melee naturally do more damage than casters? How did it take the entire topic for you to finally point this out? Can you please explain what you mean by this and provide some kind of source? You say in your own post, BLM is a challenge to use but you're saying its OK that it's not comparable to SAM basically because other casters will cry? Then the solution here is to nerf SAM. Very simple.

People always underestimate how mobile BLM actually is

Well that's part of what makes a good BLM vs a an average or bad one. IMO, even though I do not play Ultimate content and have no stake in leaderboards, for the sake of argument, in all modes of content, a BLM who is truly utilizing the class and playing well should have top DPS. As the data shows it's not like every single BLM is pushing out peak damage anyway. There is a lot of room to be a non-peak BLM, in fact more than other classes if I am not mistaken.

[Turtledeluxe]

Because in most content you don't need a DPS that can Raise.
One reason so many more SMNs were brought to TOP wasn't just "because it's easier", it has a higher total damage than RDM does. So even once you no longer need the Raises anymore (once you have the mechanics worked out and in content where a death means a wipe anyway), SMN is still more valuable than RDM exactly because it brings more damage. The main reason BLM wasn't absolutely destroying it is because the fights require a lot of MOVEMENT (which SMN also excels at), not because BLM isn't doing enough damage. It takes a skilled player to get the most out of it, and a lot of people don't realize HOW mobile BLMs are - they're actually very mobile, people just often don't realize it. BLMs are also more mobile than RDMs, and as we can see in the percentages, BLMs are more taken to TOP clears than RDMs, 16.3% BLMs vs 12.2% RDMs. SMN just has the mix of high mobility and good ENOUGH damage with ease of play, which is why it's so much higher.

Seems natural that raises would be preferred for prog and then afterward get ditched, true. But I would also say in general response
- Casual content being too easy is a separate and large problem imo, but the game is so old that I'm not sure it can be fixed.
- Yes, it makes sense that if you have two classes with comparative difficulty of mastery and one out DPS's another, then it will be picked (so SMN over RDM). Based on that maybe RDM needs to be looked at.
- Not every group, even when they are done with prog,is going to be peak performing I would think, and running strictly a meta composition of all top DPS. And even so, shouldn't their be some cases and parties where extra raise isn't essential? Otherwise these other classes wouldn't be used at any point over the lifecycle of the fights?
- I realise what you're saying about movement. Part of the issue about that from what I understand is simply that in order to keep up the challenge, fights are becoming more and more movement intensive, which makes BLM more of a challenge.
- BLM is mobile and can maximize DPS if you've mastered perfect placement within the context of its unique play style.

Still thinking SAM could get a bit of a nerf. Not to make BLM top of leaderboards, to make selfish dps make sense across the board, and to reward both play styles for playing their selfish dps classes well.

And I just want to say, before someone quotes me and says "You just want to see BLM at the top of the aDPS" -- no I don't. I want to answer the question of the topic.