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[jon041065]

At this point, how do we know it would be viable without being broken or overpowered, and that making it unlimited would result in it getting nerfed to take too much away to where the class was no longer fun?

I think it'd be far wiser to let the class come out and see how it functions before automatically assuming either that SE is 'right' or 'wrong' on this matter in making it limited.

There hasn't been many that are suggesting to just lift the restrictions and that's it. Most of us advocating for unlimited blu know that there will be a lot of work done to have it be balanced and not break the game. Especially if SE leaves the content that people are excited for as again a lot of us are in favor of that type of content as well. This is why there have been posts saying for them to make it part of the 6.0 expac.

The compromise that some of us would like to see the community get on board with is the unlimited blu people supporting the people that want solo content. The solo content people supporting the unlimited blu people. The solo people getting blu first and those of us wanting unlimited blu would get it later. Then maybe after that we will have to accept patches and/or some content coming out at a slower rate but more types of players getting the content they want.

[galbsadi]

There hasn't been many that are suggesting to just lift the restrictions and that's it. Most of us advocating for unlimited blu know that there will be a lot of work done to have it be balanced and not break the game. Especially if SE leaves the content that people are excited for as again a lot of us are in favor of that type of content as well. This is why there have been posts saying for them to make it part of the 6.0 expac.

The compromise that some of us would like to see the community get on board with is the unlimited blu people supporting the people that want solo content. The solo content people supporting the unlimited blu people. The solo people getting blu first and those of us wanting unlimited blu would get it later. Then maybe after that we will have to accept patches and/or some content coming out at a slower rate but more types of players getting the content they want.

That's actually a huge part of why I'm saying 'maybe wait before demanding.'

Imagine this: They release BLU and it's the most awesome class ever and you love it in everything you do and want to take it everywhere so you push really really hard to get them to make it unlimited because by golly we should be able to raid as BLU and do DF queues ans BLU and everything.

SE does something most MMO companies are bad about...and listens to us, and goes 'okay, let's make BLU unlimited.' So they take away our favorite spells because they're too powerful for premade group content and take away our method of gaining spells because it's too hard on new players to the class and take away or stop updating the Masked Carnival (akin to Gold Saucer) because it's no longer something they have dev hours to focus on and within 1-2 expansions it's basically red mage with different animations. If you think that can't happen, I invite you to look at 4.0 SMN/SCH/WAR after they were 'too powerful' in late HW...yes, they're mostly fixed now, but they're not what they were. Or think about all the things that they just barely added in 4.0 for SMN that people have been asking for since before 2.0 (like Bahamut). Or think about the changes they made to 4.0 MCH that made it so people who loved 3.0 MCH hate it now.

Or let's say they go really extreme...and decide to not add the class until such a time that they feel it fits the model the other classes have in unlimited content...and we never see BLU in FFXIV at all...ever. Wouldn't it make more sense to see if what they're offering us now is better than some of the potential alternatives before we throw a fit just because it can't access one small portion of the game?

edit: Example for taking away spells because too powerful...they nerfed SMN to be weaker without Bahamut in 4.0 than it was without in 3.0...basically made it so a more complicated rotation does basically the same percentage of damage.

Example for taking away ways of getting abilities because it's too hard for new players: remember when 'role actions' used to be 'cross-class' abilities and PLD could cast Protect and Stoneskin? Remember when Stoneskin existed? Remember when WAR could use Flash?

[Skyskip]

Maybe you would understand if you tried, instead of stating your opinion like a fact.
You don't get to decide if people's concerns about what you ask for are justified or not.

I've tried. I've been in this fight since day one bouncing from reddit to here. I've seen everything. I remain unconvinced.

You don't get to decide what I can and can't do either. Look, I understand there's a desire for more solo content, but to actively fight against a middle ground where both sides can be happy is unjustifiable to me. And this is coming from me- someone who is, for the most part, a solo player.

SE does something most MMO companies are bad about...and listens to us, and goes 'okay, let's make BLU unlimited.' So they take away our favorite spells because they're too powerful for premade group content and take away our method of gaining spells because it's too hard on new players to the class and take away or stop updating the Masked Carnival (akin to Gold Saucer) because it's no longer something they have dev hours to focus on and within 1-2 expansions it's basically red mage with different animations. If you think that can't happen, I invite you to look at 4.0 SMN/SCH/WAR after they were 'too powerful' in late HW...yes, they're mostly fixed now, but they're not what they were. Or think about all the things that they just barely added in 4.0 for SMN that people have been asking for since before 2.0 (like Bahamut). Or think about the changes they made to 4.0 MCH that made it so people who loved 3.0 MCH hate it now.

Or let's say they go really extreme...and decide to not add the class until such a time that they feel it fits the model the other classes have in unlimited content...and we never see BLU in FFXIV at all...ever. Wouldn't it make more sense to see if what they're offering us now is better than some of the potential alternatives before we throw a fit just because it can't access one small portion of the game?.

I think the overall solution to avoiding this problem is the 'two job stone' mechanic that's been kicked around since this job has been unveiled. Let BLU have two crystal types, one for solo content and one for group content and balance the group content abilities to be usable as such. There's already precedence for this mechanic in the same way that jobs change mechanically when brought into a PvP area, and it appears that BLU's own lore comes down to you just buying the stones straight up from some potential charlatan anyway. So it's not like the stones themselves are terribly rare.

[jon041065]

That's actually a huge part of why I'm saying 'maybe wait before demanding.'

Imagine this: They release BLU and it's the most awesome class ever and you love it in everything you do and want to take it everywhere so you push really really hard to get them to make it unlimited because by golly we should be able to raid as BLU and do DF queues ans BLU and everything.

SE does something most MMO companies are bad about...and listens to us, and goes 'okay, let's make BLU unlimited.' So they take away our favorite spells because they're too powerful for premade group content and take away our method of gaining spells because it's too hard on new players to the class and take away or stop updating the Masked Carnival (akin to Gold Saucer) because it's no longer something they have dev hours to focus on and within 1-2 expansions it's basically red mage with different animations. If you think that can't happen, I invite you to look at 4.0 SMN/SCH/WAR after they were 'too powerful' in late HW...yes, they're mostly fixed now, but they're not what they were. Or think about all the things that they just barely added in 4.0 for SMN that people have been asking for since before 2.0 (like Bahamut). Or think about the changes they made to 4.0 MCH that made it so people who loved 3.0 MCH hate it now.

Or let's say they go really extreme...and decide to not add the class until such a time that they feel it fits the model the other classes have in unlimited content...and we never see BLU in FFXIV at all...ever. Wouldn't it make more sense to see if what they're offering us now is better than some of the potential alternatives before we throw a fit just because it can't access one small portion of the game?

edit: Example for taking away spells because too powerful...they nerfed SMN to be weaker without Bahamut in 4.0 than it was without in 3.0...basically made it so a more complicated rotation does basically the same percentage of damage.

Example for taking away ways of getting abilities because it's too hard for new players: remember when 'role actions' used to be 'cross-class' abilities and PLD could cast Protect and Stoneskin? Remember when Stoneskin existed? Remember when WAR could use Flash?

1. Why would they have to take away favorite spells? Not all of us believe they have to do exactly the same things they did in previous FF games. Most asking for unlimited blu understand that the spells won't be exactly the same. Fyce asked about this in another thread and several of us said we are fine with spells feeling similar when they are used when compared to past FF games. It won't be what everyone wants but neither will a gunblade job, dancer, puppet master, beast master, etc. Also don't forget that many of us are asking for limited blu and the Carnival to not be removed.

2. Advance jobs or jobs that have some barrier to entry are a thing in FF games and a lot would be fine with that. They could keep the learning method they decided on. We don't know the chance of learning a spell yet besides that it will be "rare". They could make it something like a 20% chance to learn a spell and I think that would be fine.

3. There's some saying there's no point in the Carnival and it was a waste of resources. Most on the unlimited blu side have said the Carnival looks great and hopes SE leaves it in if they were to listen to our requests. As for the dev hours thing, that's why I said we would possibly have to accept a slow patch pace. Give them the time to work on these various things.

4. Why would an unlimited blu end up as a reskinned rdm? Are all the casters just reskins of each other? Two points here. First being that there are still other mechanics for casters beyond what we already have in the game. Second is that we don't know how they would make unlimited blu. They could make it the first multi role job for example.

5. I still remember when BRD was the best overall job for raiding in 2.0. SMN has taken a long time to get to be a spot it is in now but 3.0 smn was still accepted more than it was in 2.0. It started to become something more than a WoW warlock clone. Not everyone is going to like every iteration of jobs. Should they not add the gunblade job because it might be changed in a way people don't like in the 6.0 expac?

6. Yoshi P said that he wasn't sure how to make rdm work in the game before but they ended up making it work to mostly positive reception. I personally would like it to have some more melee in the game play but it's a fun job.

Limited blu can't access a large portion of the game.



For some of us, this is the most important type of content. So the Carnival can be amazing and we could want to see more of it. That still won't make up for not being able to play as blu where it matters the most to us.

edit: Example for taking away spells because too powerful...they nerfed SMN to be weaker without Bahamut in 4.0 than it was without in 3.0...basically made it so a more complicated rotation does basically the same percentage of damage.

What spell did they remove in this example? If your point is that they added new game play but had to balance out SMN to keep the same output that the devs were happy with then I'm not seeing the problem. It is unfortunate that there is probably some that loved SMN before 4.0 but that's the nature of mmos.

Example for taking away ways of getting abilities because it's too hard for new players: remember when 'role actions' used to be 'cross-class' abilities and PLD could cast Protect and Stoneskin? Remember when Stoneskin existed? Remember when WAR could use Flash?

There's a difference between "go level up these jobs to have access to all your potential abilities" and "here's a lot of abilities you can go learn". We don't know if all spells will be necessary to finish the Carnival and which ones will be part of a "mandatory" build for soloing. There's a large chance that players won't learn all the spells because they don't view them as being important to what they are wanting to do with the job.

I think the overall solution to avoiding this problem is the 'two job stone' mechanic that's been kicked around since this job has been unveiled. Let BLU have two crystal types, one for solo content and one for group content and balance the group content abilities to be usable as such. There's already precedence for this mechanic in the same way that jobs change mechanically when brought into a PvP area, and it appears that BLU's own lore comes down to you just buying the stones straight up from some potential charlatan anyway. So it's not like the stones themselves are terribly rare.

Or even just a toggle that can be changed within like a city or inn room. I'm not a programmer but I'd imagine that it would be possible to take the automatic switching of abilities when you go into PVP and make a manual switch that can achieve the same thing of swapping between limited and unlimited blu.

Not able to read every post since I last visited but do we know what the JP forums are saying about this topic, if they are?

Last I heard, the JP forums had a similar split of close to 50/50 in how they are viewing limited blu. Just that the discussion is less abrasive and not in multiple threads like we have.

It's been even longer since I heard someone mention how it's going on the German and French forums but it was a similar situation back then.

[galbsadi]

1. Why would they have to take away favorite spells? .

Spell too powerful, too hard to obtain but necessary, etc. I'm not saying they *would* do it, but they could decide that they had to. Of course there are ways around this that others mentioned, such as two job stones.

They could make it something like a 20% chance

Sure, they could. Or they could make it equivalent to bird drops from prior expansion trials. Or anywhere in between. Or worse.

Are all the casters just reskins of each other?.

To an extent many classes are basically reskinned versions of another. Cure = Physick = Benefic, Succor = Aspected Helios = Medica/Medica II, Rage of Halone combo = Butcher's Block combo = Power Slash combo. What currently makes BLU unique, as far as we can tell, is learning monster abilities and using them. If not for that, for all we know it could be like SMN without the pets and dots or RDM without dualcast, etc. Not saying it WOULD be, but it's a risk you're taking in trying to tell them to convert something with unlimited potential into something that fits the balance aspects of the game.

6. Yoshi P said that he wasn't sure how to make rdm work in the game before but they ended up making it work to mostly positive reception. I personally would like it to have some more melee in the game play but it's a fun job.

And Yoshi P who figured out how to make RDM work said he couldn't figure out how to make BLU work as unlimited. That carries more weight than somebody who'd never done it before, yes?

Limited blu can't access a large portion of the game.

Limited BLU can't troll duty finder without having any abilities like the 272 tank in another thread did his group in Castrum, you mean?

That still won't make up for not being able to play as blu where it matters the most to us.

Would not being able to play BLU at all make it better?

What spell did they remove in this example?

They removed Sustain (brought it back in 4.1 after they realized how much it screwed people over), removed cross-class abilities in favor of 'role actions' (it was pointless, but OUAT SMN could cast 'Blizzard'), etc. In similar breaths they took 'Protect' and 'Stoneskin' away from PLD (took 'Stoneskin away from everybody, actually).

We don't know if all spells will be necessary

There's also a chance that, if unlimited, certain abilities might be seen as 'mandatory' and players get greifed for not bringing them (or hold back entire groups by not bringing them). Tell me what you would do in O12S with a WHM who only cast 'Cure' the entire run, or, more closely, a BLM who only cast 'Blizzard'? In the case of BLU, they might only KNOW Blizzard (well, the equivalent).

[jon041065]

To an extent many classes are basically reskinned versions of another. Cure = Physick = Benefic, Succor = Aspected Helios = Medica/Medica II, Rage of Halone combo = Butcher's Block combo = Power Slash combo. What currently makes BLU unique, as far as we can tell, is learning monster abilities and using them. If not for that, for all we know it could be like SMN without the pets and dots or RDM without dualcast, etc. Not saying it WOULD be, but it's a risk you're taking in trying to tell them to convert something with unlimited potential into something that fits the balance aspects of the game.

There are reskinned abilities and guess what? Most of the blue spells will be reskinned abilities even as a limited job. What's the difference between a spell that does water damage and one that does wind damage throughout most of the game? It's only in the Carnival were most of the blue spells will be allowed to work with a different rulebook. That's not saying it's good. I rather they use blu to expand systems in the rest of the game instead of putting it in its own separate box. What you said makes blu unique is what pretty much everyone in this debate is saying is blu's identity. Some have added a few things but almost every one (there was one person that said just slap the blue mage name on a caster) has stated that keeping that identity is important. For some, what the spells have done in past FF games is of very high importance or they just have to feel similar to how they were in the past for others like myself. Those of us that want to main blu would have accepted a full job that learns enemy abilities and uses them as a major part of its game play. It might not be a tank like I was hoping for or how others would have liked to see it but at least it would be something we could main. And if it was just awful, we could give feedback on that and watch what SE would do with it.

And Yoshi P who figured out how to make RDM work said he couldn't figure out how to make BLU work as unlimited. That carries more weight than somebody who'd never done it before, yes?

He didn't say he couldn't figure out how make BLU work as unlimited. The limited version is how he say how it could be fun. Same as how him and his team once thought 2.0 smn and bow mage could be fun.

For rdm, he had said that he saw it as a buffing/debuffing job but there wasn't a support role in the game. I wish that they had used rdm to add a support role or break the trinity in some other way. They didn't but what they gave us is still pretty fun and most players seem to enjoy it.

Limited BLU can't troll duty finder without having any abilities like the 272 tank in another thread did his group in Castrum, you mean?

When did I say to just lift the restrictions and let blu into everything?

Would not being able to play BLU at all make it better?

It would still let those of us that want to main blu have more hope that we could one day than what we have right now. I would have preferred if SE announced BLU as a full job and that the Carnival would be the first in a new type of solo content that would be accessible by all jobs. That this new content would be the Diadem/Eureka of Shadowbringers. Then for an extra bonus, that the Carnival would be coming out in the 4.5 patch. It even would have been fine if they said that BLU would still be capped at 50 to start off with and then brought up to 70 over the coming months before the 5.0 launch.

They removed Sustain (brought it back in 4.1 after they realized how much it screwed people over), removed cross-class abilities in favor of 'role actions' (it was pointless, but OUAT SMN could cast 'Blizzard'), etc. In similar breaths they took 'Protect' and 'Stoneskin' away from PLD (took 'Stoneskin away from everybody, actually).

Sounded like you meant they removed some part of SMN damage ability toolkit to balance out the fact they were getting Bahamut. SMN losing Sustain for awhile did suck but I don't believe their intention was to lower SMN dps with it and that's why the put Sustain back in.

There's also a chance that, if unlimited, certain abilities might be seen as 'mandatory' and players get greifed for not bringing them (or hold back entire groups by not bringing them). Tell me what you would do in O12S with a WHM who only cast 'Cure' the entire run, or, more closely, a BLM who only cast 'Blizzard'? In the case of BLU, they might only KNOW Blizzard (well, the equivalent).

I'd have to kick a person that is playing like that. If they didn't know a spell then would have to tell them it would be a good idea about it. Doesn't mean these interactions have to be done in a rude way. I would try to avoid being rude unless I felt that player was acting in a way that warranted that type of behavior from myself.

Once more, most of us are not asking for the restrictions to just be removed and SE stop there. Unlimited blu could still have the same spell learning method and could be the game's first advance job that takes more work to get up and running. Get that sense of pride and accomplishment. We already touched that the chance to learn spells wouldn't have to be such a rare thing.

[galbsadi]

And if it was just awful, we could give feedback on that and watch what SE would do with it.

But for now you need to assume it's going to be terrible and give feedback that it's terrible when you haven't even played it yet?

He didn't say he couldn't figure out how make BLU work as unlimited. The limited version is how he say how it could be fun. Same as how him and his team once thought 2.0 smn and bow mage could be fun.

2.0 SMN was fun. I played as 2.0 SMN and enjoyed it, TYVM.

When did I say to just lift the restrictions and let blu into everything?

My mistake if you weren't implying that. It seems to have been implied enough in this thread that I was of the belief you were.

Sounded like you meant they removed some part of SMN damage ability toolkit to balance out the fact they were getting Bahamut. SMN losing Sustain for awhile did suck but I don't believe their intention was to lower SMN dps with it and that's why the put Sustain back in.

Sustain doesn't do damage. It heals your pet. In group content it'd have zero effect. All it did was make life painful for leveling SMN.

I'd have to kick a person that is playing like that. If they didn't know a spell then would have to tell them it would be a good idea about it. Doesn't mean these interactions have to be done in a rude way. I would try to avoid being rude unless I felt that player was acting in a way that warranted that type of behavior from myself.

So you'd have to spend 5min waiting and praying to then kick a BLU that didn't bother to learn any abilities...and then hope they didn't bring a friend who wanted to troll you further. You don't see the problem here?

[Shougun]

So you'd have to spend 5min waiting and praying to then kick a BLU that didn't bother to learn any abilities...and then hope they didn't bring a friend who wanted to troll you further. You don't see the problem here?

Lots o different opinions here so can't speak for everyone (lol :P), but my personal favorite to work with these issues (and others) is:

Two sided job stone, or two stones literally (I think two sided is conceptually more fun though).

One side is unchained releasing and relying on a particularly dangerous aether in the environment (blue aether?). Lore here is that those not prepared to handle this type can be damaged, and that this type of aether, this mist or fog will you (FF reference), grows over time such that older content has more of it and newer content less. Therefore unchained / untamed mode here is lore'd to work only in party finder / solo and only in content that isn't current.

The other side is chained / tamed. Both sides reference the same book and gear. However because it is a different job stone you can easily have two sets of gear in your armory managed, including your hot bar. That way you don't have to reorganize everything from going OP mode / not, just flip your stone.

Finally in tamed mode there are a set of spells easier to tame into the presence of others and require less blue mist/fog in the dungeon to cast, these spells are highlighted gold (or whatever color). These are skills allowed into duty finder. You may not use duty finder for a level of content you don't have a spell for. Better example you're level 20, at level 18 you learn hip thrust and at level 22 you learn 1,000 needle. Both of these skills are highlighted gold mean you could use them in duty finder. When you queue for the level 21 dungeon you are required to have everything level 21 and below (that's highlighted gold), including hip thrust, before entering but you are not required to have 1,000 needle as it doesn't apply to the dungeon.

Now in this way you will /never/ see a Blue Mage who doesn't have a skill he needs, at least in duty finder. You could still easily find blue mages that don't have X skills in the party finder when unchained, so you'd just need to make sure they're not being in the wrong mode lol (like if your tank was in their sub job "gladiator" for some reason and not paladin). Also to note the does your Blue have X skill in party finder issue is the same for SE's current version.

So Blue Mage in duty finder is balanced around a specific set of skills, just like other jobs, that is derived from their list of abilities they must go out and learn. It is important to note at level 50 they will already have access to near 50 spells. So if you imagine a full book of blue at level 80 is like 100 or so skills. I'm sure SE can make a "tamed" version of 24 skills from that 100 and make it both fun and balanced.

Other thing to note is lets say at 7.0 there is a new level cap increase. Obviously blue mage will be getting a lot of new spells, but at patch intervals. The unchained (non-duty finder) skills can be developed at a later date while the chained ones can be made available just like other jobs. So as soon as new levels come out blue mage is there able to keep playing with their friends, but they will have to go back later and learn the other skills once SE makes them available (for their unchained side at least, they don't "have to").

Not suggesting any of the above is easy, or free - definitely not free lol. But I believe it could work so that everyone gets the blue mage they wanted (if you don't want to main blue mage but would like to do side content then do so, if you want to do both then do so, if you want to just main blue.. then do so). IMO the biggest issue with the above (besides not being free lol) is that it might make Blue Mage seem too cool, as it has so much to do with it. Although like I said before I would be a fan of seeing other "advanced jobs" like puppet master being able to craft unique featured minions and also of course craft their own toolkit (puppet master's puppet), meanwhile beast master having a sort of DoL Sheppard side feature.