BLU for Duty Finder and Raids! Show your support!

[galbsadi]

There hasn't been many that are suggesting to just lift the restrictions and that's it. Most of us advocating for unlimited blu know that there will be a lot of work done to have it be balanced and not break the game. Especially if SE leaves the content that people are excited for as again a lot of us are in favor of that type of content as well. This is why there have been posts saying for them to make it part of the 6.0 expac.

The compromise that some of us would like to see the community get on board with is the unlimited blu people supporting the people that want solo content. The solo content people supporting the unlimited blu people. The solo people getting blu first and those of us wanting unlimited blu would get it later. Then maybe after that we will have to accept patches and/or some content coming out at a slower rate but more types of players getting the content they want.

That's actually a huge part of why I'm saying 'maybe wait before demanding.'

Imagine this: They release BLU and it's the most awesome class ever and you love it in everything you do and want to take it everywhere so you push really really hard to get them to make it unlimited because by golly we should be able to raid as BLU and do DF queues ans BLU and everything.

SE does something most MMO companies are bad about...and listens to us, and goes 'okay, let's make BLU unlimited.' So they take away our favorite spells because they're too powerful for premade group content and take away our method of gaining spells because it's too hard on new players to the class and take away or stop updating the Masked Carnival (akin to Gold Saucer) because it's no longer something they have dev hours to focus on and within 1-2 expansions it's basically red mage with different animations. If you think that can't happen, I invite you to look at 4.0 SMN/SCH/WAR after they were 'too powerful' in late HW...yes, they're mostly fixed now, but they're not what they were. Or think about all the things that they just barely added in 4.0 for SMN that people have been asking for since before 2.0 (like Bahamut). Or think about the changes they made to 4.0 MCH that made it so people who loved 3.0 MCH hate it now.

Or let's say they go really extreme...and decide to not add the class until such a time that they feel it fits the model the other classes have in unlimited content...and we never see BLU in FFXIV at all...ever. Wouldn't it make more sense to see if what they're offering us now is better than some of the potential alternatives before we throw a fit just because it can't access one small portion of the game?

edit: Example for taking away spells because too powerful...they nerfed SMN to be weaker without Bahamut in 4.0 than it was without in 3.0...basically made it so a more complicated rotation does basically the same percentage of damage.

Example for taking away ways of getting abilities because it's too hard for new players: remember when 'role actions' used to be 'cross-class' abilities and PLD could cast Protect and Stoneskin? Remember when Stoneskin existed? Remember when WAR could use Flash?

[Shougun]

Because even then we didn't know. There were a multitude of complaints, some of which turned out to be valid, others which turned out to not be relevant...because we really didn't know. (I believe the ones that were found to be valid were mostly fixed in early 4.1 IIRC)

Oh yeah, I don't mean it as in like "BLUE WILL NEVER HAVE ANY BALANCE ISSUES!!" lol. I meant it as in anything can have balance concerns. Of course if we suggest blue comes into duty finder with a working level 5 death.. well.. ... hah. Balance destroyed lol. But the people who are asking for Blue to work in duty finder, usually, say ways for that to work. Some ways to work more or less complicated than others but I just meant to say just because there are (and will be for everything that has to do with combat) balance concerns doesn't mean we shouldn't ask if we can do it or not. That's all

Okay so are you implying that people won't like BLU at all, or that they'll only like it if they can play the class in random non-premade group content? The former is possible (I mean, I still don't particularly enjoy MCH)...but irrelevant, because making the job limited or not would have zero impact either way. The latter is simply incorrect. There's not a single class that I only enjoy if I can play it in a random dungeon group and could never enjoy in a premade group or solo. I dislike MCH solo, I dislike MCH in premades, I dislike MCH in random group content. On the flip side, I highly enjoy SCH solo, I enjoy SCH in premades, and I enjoy SCH in group content. If SCH became a limited class tomorrow that could no longer do non-premade duty-finder content...I'd still enjoy SCH.

I'm implying people who don't like cilantro don't need to try cilantro bread to know they wont like it (doesn't have to be food based lol). I am definitely not implying that all people wont like it though, or that there wont be some people who like some of it. For example you said you were making me cilantro bread but I also love cheese, so if you could please slap some cheese on the side and I'll roast it myself that'd be awesome. (I don't know why I'm using food so much, must be hungry). So for myself I think I WILL like the blue mage solo aspect and weird spells, but I also know that I WILL always want to have blue mage in duty finder and will always be sad that they didn't find a way to make it happen. And I'm not just asking for them to make it happen without attempting to suggest ways that I think would work/satisfy me (not suggesting I've satisfied everyone).

So I think perhaps my example made you mistake my point, could be my fault.. food? lol. To reiterate I'm implying that it is very possible with high accuracy to judge how you'll respond before you've tried it. Like if you're into women, or men, with long hair and then they say "what if I shaved it all off"... It's not hard to be like "you know what, you do you but.. I don't think it'd be my favorite haircut..... since you're asking..".

That's really not relevant. It's not like they're making BLU and skipping a new dungeon and skipping a new alliance raid and skipping a new race, etc. They're doing that in addition to all these other things. Your example is more akin to deciding that you don't like Stormblood because they added spearfishing and you don't like Fisher (or you think they should have added a 'Looking for Fish' queue to the Duty Finder instead) so everything else that happened this expansion is moot.

It's relevant in that you can know you don't like something or not..... That is entirely relevant. If you like battle content and SE says "next year is ONLY gathering content" then you will be annoyed... I'm not sure how you were reading that (probably fault to the silly metaphor I used again :3).

I actually don't know at this point. Maybe I'll hate it like I don't particularly care for MCH, maybe I'll play it and want to do everything in it, maybe I'll love it just how it is....it's not out yet, I haven't been able to try it yet...I don't know. (And that was kinda my point.)

I know your point, that is whether you'll like SE's version or not and it's not fair to say there wont be merit to it without trying it first. I was saying you don't need to know if you'll like SE's version to know if you will be happy or sad you can't play with others (in end game, current content - when it's no longer current even in SE's you may).

From reading their info I think I'll like SE's version, but I will also believe it to be a mistake to make Blue Mage exclusively limited and have suggested ways to maybe possibly make it work under both systems. That I've said before that I would like to see them work on the concept of Advanced Job rather than limited job (I'm not really in love with the wording "unlimited" lol).

[Skyskip]

Maybe you would understand if you tried, instead of stating your opinion like a fact.
You don't get to decide if people's concerns about what you ask for are justified or not.

I've tried. I've been in this fight since day one bouncing from reddit to here. I've seen everything. I remain unconvinced.

You don't get to decide what I can and can't do either. Look, I understand there's a desire for more solo content, but to actively fight against a middle ground where both sides can be happy is unjustifiable to me. And this is coming from me- someone who is, for the most part, a solo player.

SE does something most MMO companies are bad about...and listens to us, and goes 'okay, let's make BLU unlimited.' So they take away our favorite spells because they're too powerful for premade group content and take away our method of gaining spells because it's too hard on new players to the class and take away or stop updating the Masked Carnival (akin to Gold Saucer) because it's no longer something they have dev hours to focus on and within 1-2 expansions it's basically red mage with different animations. If you think that can't happen, I invite you to look at 4.0 SMN/SCH/WAR after they were 'too powerful' in late HW...yes, they're mostly fixed now, but they're not what they were. Or think about all the things that they just barely added in 4.0 for SMN that people have been asking for since before 2.0 (like Bahamut). Or think about the changes they made to 4.0 MCH that made it so people who loved 3.0 MCH hate it now.

Or let's say they go really extreme...and decide to not add the class until such a time that they feel it fits the model the other classes have in unlimited content...and we never see BLU in FFXIV at all...ever. Wouldn't it make more sense to see if what they're offering us now is better than some of the potential alternatives before we throw a fit just because it can't access one small portion of the game?.

I think the overall solution to avoiding this problem is the 'two job stone' mechanic that's been kicked around since this job has been unveiled. Let BLU have two crystal types, one for solo content and one for group content and balance the group content abilities to be usable as such. There's already precedence for this mechanic in the same way that jobs change mechanically when brought into a PvP area, and it appears that BLU's own lore comes down to you just buying the stones straight up from some potential charlatan anyway. So it's not like the stones themselves are terribly rare.

[jon041065]

That's actually a huge part of why I'm saying 'maybe wait before demanding.'

Imagine this: They release BLU and it's the most awesome class ever and you love it in everything you do and want to take it everywhere so you push really really hard to get them to make it unlimited because by golly we should be able to raid as BLU and do DF queues ans BLU and everything.

SE does something most MMO companies are bad about...and listens to us, and goes 'okay, let's make BLU unlimited.' So they take away our favorite spells because they're too powerful for premade group content and take away our method of gaining spells because it's too hard on new players to the class and take away or stop updating the Masked Carnival (akin to Gold Saucer) because it's no longer something they have dev hours to focus on and within 1-2 expansions it's basically red mage with different animations. If you think that can't happen, I invite you to look at 4.0 SMN/SCH/WAR after they were 'too powerful' in late HW...yes, they're mostly fixed now, but they're not what they were. Or think about all the things that they just barely added in 4.0 for SMN that people have been asking for since before 2.0 (like Bahamut). Or think about the changes they made to 4.0 MCH that made it so people who loved 3.0 MCH hate it now.

Or let's say they go really extreme...and decide to not add the class until such a time that they feel it fits the model the other classes have in unlimited content...and we never see BLU in FFXIV at all...ever. Wouldn't it make more sense to see if what they're offering us now is better than some of the potential alternatives before we throw a fit just because it can't access one small portion of the game?

edit: Example for taking away spells because too powerful...they nerfed SMN to be weaker without Bahamut in 4.0 than it was without in 3.0...basically made it so a more complicated rotation does basically the same percentage of damage.

Example for taking away ways of getting abilities because it's too hard for new players: remember when 'role actions' used to be 'cross-class' abilities and PLD could cast Protect and Stoneskin? Remember when Stoneskin existed? Remember when WAR could use Flash?

1. Why would they have to take away favorite spells? Not all of us believe they have to do exactly the same things they did in previous FF games. Most asking for unlimited blu understand that the spells won't be exactly the same. Fyce asked about this in another thread and several of us said we are fine with spells feeling similar when they are used when compared to past FF games. It won't be what everyone wants but neither will a gunblade job, dancer, puppet master, beast master, etc. Also don't forget that many of us are asking for limited blu and the Carnival to not be removed.

2. Advance jobs or jobs that have some barrier to entry are a thing in FF games and a lot would be fine with that. They could keep the learning method they decided on. We don't know the chance of learning a spell yet besides that it will be "rare". They could make it something like a 20% chance to learn a spell and I think that would be fine.

3. There's some saying there's no point in the Carnival and it was a waste of resources. Most on the unlimited blu side have said the Carnival looks great and hopes SE leaves it in if they were to listen to our requests. As for the dev hours thing, that's why I said we would possibly have to accept a slow patch pace. Give them the time to work on these various things.

4. Why would an unlimited blu end up as a reskinned rdm? Are all the casters just reskins of each other? Two points here. First being that there are still other mechanics for casters beyond what we already have in the game. Second is that we don't know how they would make unlimited blu. They could make it the first multi role job for example.

5. I still remember when BRD was the best overall job for raiding in 2.0. SMN has taken a long time to get to be a spot it is in now but 3.0 smn was still accepted more than it was in 2.0. It started to become something more than a WoW warlock clone. Not everyone is going to like every iteration of jobs. Should they not add the gunblade job because it might be changed in a way people don't like in the 6.0 expac?

6. Yoshi P said that he wasn't sure how to make rdm work in the game before but they ended up making it work to mostly positive reception. I personally would like it to have some more melee in the game play but it's a fun job.

Limited blu can't access a large portion of the game.



For some of us, this is the most important type of content. So the Carnival can be amazing and we could want to see more of it. That still won't make up for not being able to play as blu where it matters the most to us.

edit: Example for taking away spells because too powerful...they nerfed SMN to be weaker without Bahamut in 4.0 than it was without in 3.0...basically made it so a more complicated rotation does basically the same percentage of damage.

What spell did they remove in this example? If your point is that they added new game play but had to balance out SMN to keep the same output that the devs were happy with then I'm not seeing the problem. It is unfortunate that there is probably some that loved SMN before 4.0 but that's the nature of mmos.

Example for taking away ways of getting abilities because it's too hard for new players: remember when 'role actions' used to be 'cross-class' abilities and PLD could cast Protect and Stoneskin? Remember when Stoneskin existed? Remember when WAR could use Flash?

There's a difference between "go level up these jobs to have access to all your potential abilities" and "here's a lot of abilities you can go learn". We don't know if all spells will be necessary to finish the Carnival and which ones will be part of a "mandatory" build for soloing. There's a large chance that players won't learn all the spells because they don't view them as being important to what they are wanting to do with the job.

I think the overall solution to avoiding this problem is the 'two job stone' mechanic that's been kicked around since this job has been unveiled. Let BLU have two crystal types, one for solo content and one for group content and balance the group content abilities to be usable as such. There's already precedence for this mechanic in the same way that jobs change mechanically when brought into a PvP area, and it appears that BLU's own lore comes down to you just buying the stones straight up from some potential charlatan anyway. So it's not like the stones themselves are terribly rare.

Or even just a toggle that can be changed within like a city or inn room. I'm not a programmer but I'd imagine that it would be possible to take the automatic switching of abilities when you go into PVP and make a manual switch that can achieve the same thing of swapping between limited and unlimited blu.

Not able to read every post since I last visited but do we know what the JP forums are saying about this topic, if they are?

Last I heard, the JP forums had a similar split of close to 50/50 in how they are viewing limited blu. Just that the discussion is less abrasive and not in multiple threads like we have.

It's been even longer since I heard someone mention how it's going on the German and French forums but it was a similar situation back then.

[Asheilin]

Not able to read every post since I last visited but do we know what the JP forums are saying about this topic, if they are?

[Caelen]

I'd like to see BLU able to do all the things, like every other job. Keep the learning mechanic, but have BLU just gain all of its abilities for its level when you do group content. Give the BLU a job limiter option. Job limiter on means abilities are balanced for group play and all abilities are available based exclusively on level. Job limiter off means abilities are at full power for solo play and require learning first. There could even be abilities that are only usable with the limiter off and don't have a limiter on counterpart, which allows for countless learnable abilities without cluttering up the balance of group play. Job limiter would just be a toggle ability that is forced on during normal group content, but with the option to toggle it at any time during solo play or uncapped group content (such as entering a low level dungeon as super high level characters).

[galbsadi]

1. Why would they have to take away favorite spells? .

Spell too powerful, too hard to obtain but necessary, etc. I'm not saying they *would* do it, but they could decide that they had to. Of course there are ways around this that others mentioned, such as two job stones.

They could make it something like a 20% chance

Sure, they could. Or they could make it equivalent to bird drops from prior expansion trials. Or anywhere in between. Or worse.

Are all the casters just reskins of each other?.

To an extent many classes are basically reskinned versions of another. Cure = Physick = Benefic, Succor = Aspected Helios = Medica/Medica II, Rage of Halone combo = Butcher's Block combo = Power Slash combo. What currently makes BLU unique, as far as we can tell, is learning monster abilities and using them. If not for that, for all we know it could be like SMN without the pets and dots or RDM without dualcast, etc. Not saying it WOULD be, but it's a risk you're taking in trying to tell them to convert something with unlimited potential into something that fits the balance aspects of the game.

6. Yoshi P said that he wasn't sure how to make rdm work in the game before but they ended up making it work to mostly positive reception. I personally would like it to have some more melee in the game play but it's a fun job.

And Yoshi P who figured out how to make RDM work said he couldn't figure out how to make BLU work as unlimited. That carries more weight than somebody who'd never done it before, yes?

Limited blu can't access a large portion of the game.

Limited BLU can't troll duty finder without having any abilities like the 272 tank in another thread did his group in Castrum, you mean?

That still won't make up for not being able to play as blu where it matters the most to us.

Would not being able to play BLU at all make it better?

What spell did they remove in this example?

They removed Sustain (brought it back in 4.1 after they realized how much it screwed people over), removed cross-class abilities in favor of 'role actions' (it was pointless, but OUAT SMN could cast 'Blizzard'), etc. In similar breaths they took 'Protect' and 'Stoneskin' away from PLD (took 'Stoneskin away from everybody, actually).

We don't know if all spells will be necessary

There's also a chance that, if unlimited, certain abilities might be seen as 'mandatory' and players get greifed for not bringing them (or hold back entire groups by not bringing them). Tell me what you would do in O12S with a WHM who only cast 'Cure' the entire run, or, more closely, a BLM who only cast 'Blizzard'? In the case of BLU, they might only KNOW Blizzard (well, the equivalent).

[jon041065]

To an extent many classes are basically reskinned versions of another. Cure = Physick = Benefic, Succor = Aspected Helios = Medica/Medica II, Rage of Halone combo = Butcher's Block combo = Power Slash combo. What currently makes BLU unique, as far as we can tell, is learning monster abilities and using them. If not for that, for all we know it could be like SMN without the pets and dots or RDM without dualcast, etc. Not saying it WOULD be, but it's a risk you're taking in trying to tell them to convert something with unlimited potential into something that fits the balance aspects of the game.

There are reskinned abilities and guess what? Most of the blue spells will be reskinned abilities even as a limited job. What's the difference between a spell that does water damage and one that does wind damage throughout most of the game? It's only in the Carnival were most of the blue spells will be allowed to work with a different rulebook. That's not saying it's good. I rather they use blu to expand systems in the rest of the game instead of putting it in its own separate box. What you said makes blu unique is what pretty much everyone in this debate is saying is blu's identity. Some have added a few things but almost every one (there was one person that said just slap the blue mage name on a caster) has stated that keeping that identity is important. For some, what the spells have done in past FF games is of very high importance or they just have to feel similar to how they were in the past for others like myself. Those of us that want to main blu would have accepted a full job that learns enemy abilities and uses them as a major part of its game play. It might not be a tank like I was hoping for or how others would have liked to see it but at least it would be something we could main. And if it was just awful, we could give feedback on that and watch what SE would do with it.

And Yoshi P who figured out how to make RDM work said he couldn't figure out how to make BLU work as unlimited. That carries more weight than somebody who'd never done it before, yes?

He didn't say he couldn't figure out how make BLU work as unlimited. The limited version is how he say how it could be fun. Same as how him and his team once thought 2.0 smn and bow mage could be fun.

For rdm, he had said that he saw it as a buffing/debuffing job but there wasn't a support role in the game. I wish that they had used rdm to add a support role or break the trinity in some other way. They didn't but what they gave us is still pretty fun and most players seem to enjoy it.

Limited BLU can't troll duty finder without having any abilities like the 272 tank in another thread did his group in Castrum, you mean?

When did I say to just lift the restrictions and let blu into everything?

Would not being able to play BLU at all make it better?

It would still let those of us that want to main blu have more hope that we could one day than what we have right now. I would have preferred if SE announced BLU as a full job and that the Carnival would be the first in a new type of solo content that would be accessible by all jobs. That this new content would be the Diadem/Eureka of Shadowbringers. Then for an extra bonus, that the Carnival would be coming out in the 4.5 patch. It even would have been fine if they said that BLU would still be capped at 50 to start off with and then brought up to 70 over the coming months before the 5.0 launch.

They removed Sustain (brought it back in 4.1 after they realized how much it screwed people over), removed cross-class abilities in favor of 'role actions' (it was pointless, but OUAT SMN could cast 'Blizzard'), etc. In similar breaths they took 'Protect' and 'Stoneskin' away from PLD (took 'Stoneskin away from everybody, actually).

Sounded like you meant they removed some part of SMN damage ability toolkit to balance out the fact they were getting Bahamut. SMN losing Sustain for awhile did suck but I don't believe their intention was to lower SMN dps with it and that's why the put Sustain back in.

There's also a chance that, if unlimited, certain abilities might be seen as 'mandatory' and players get greifed for not bringing them (or hold back entire groups by not bringing them). Tell me what you would do in O12S with a WHM who only cast 'Cure' the entire run, or, more closely, a BLM who only cast 'Blizzard'? In the case of BLU, they might only KNOW Blizzard (well, the equivalent).

I'd have to kick a person that is playing like that. If they didn't know a spell then would have to tell them it would be a good idea about it. Doesn't mean these interactions have to be done in a rude way. I would try to avoid being rude unless I felt that player was acting in a way that warranted that type of behavior from myself.

Once more, most of us are not asking for the restrictions to just be removed and SE stop there. Unlimited blu could still have the same spell learning method and could be the game's first advance job that takes more work to get up and running. Get that sense of pride and accomplishment. We already touched that the chance to learn spells wouldn't have to be such a rare thing.

[Oreos]

Gonna bump this back to the first page. Please consider changing BLU for 6.0, SE.

[galbsadi]

And if it was just awful, we could give feedback on that and watch what SE would do with it.

But for now you need to assume it's going to be terrible and give feedback that it's terrible when you haven't even played it yet?

He didn't say he couldn't figure out how make BLU work as unlimited. The limited version is how he say how it could be fun. Same as how him and his team once thought 2.0 smn and bow mage could be fun.

2.0 SMN was fun. I played as 2.0 SMN and enjoyed it, TYVM.

When did I say to just lift the restrictions and let blu into everything?

My mistake if you weren't implying that. It seems to have been implied enough in this thread that I was of the belief you were.

Sounded like you meant they removed some part of SMN damage ability toolkit to balance out the fact they were getting Bahamut. SMN losing Sustain for awhile did suck but I don't believe their intention was to lower SMN dps with it and that's why the put Sustain back in.

Sustain doesn't do damage. It heals your pet. In group content it'd have zero effect. All it did was make life painful for leveling SMN.

I'd have to kick a person that is playing like that. If they didn't know a spell then would have to tell them it would be a good idea about it. Doesn't mean these interactions have to be done in a rude way. I would try to avoid being rude unless I felt that player was acting in a way that warranted that type of behavior from myself.

So you'd have to spend 5min waiting and praying to then kick a BLU that didn't bother to learn any abilities...and then hope they didn't bring a friend who wanted to troll you further. You don't see the problem here?