Late to the BLU Party

[Mibgestalt]

So, if you are actually okay with throwing out everything that consititute BLU's identity, what's left that you actually like? Because when I read stuff like this:then I am really questionning what aspect of BLU you love so much, because statements like these basically throw every situational/gimmicky skills out of the window (which, again, is 95% of what Blue Magic was about in older FF titles). For me, it translates to: "I don't care about how BLU plays as long as it's called BLU and works in all battle content". And, no offense, but that seems to be a really weak reason to support non-limited BLU specifically.

You are fine with giving up so much that it genuinely makes me wonder what you actually like with Blue Mages and Blue Magic in general.

Personally I find arguments like this to be some of the weakest and most offensive, really. You're trying to diminish what other people like about the class to make it seem like the Limited version we're getting is some "true distilled essence of the job" that only the truly devoted and worthy will appreciate, as though you're qualified to decide that. You call out some random guy for saying Blue Mage is a nuke mage, and then make a patently false claim that "95% of Blue Magic in older FF titles is situational or gimmicky". Of all of Blue Mage's spells, even in older titles where the most gimmicky and situational spells are, 30-40% are just straight damage spells of various elements. There are more straight damage spells in every iteration of Blue Mage (except Quina but he's about as unorthodox as it gets and no one is here whining BLU doesn't use a Fork except me), as opposed to support or debilitating or "quirky".
Do you even like Blue Mage to be misrepresenting it so much just to fill your Limited Job agenda? Like... what do YOU even like about it?

It's honestly pretty disrespectful to people just for having their own opinions and liking different facets about the job. It's like me saying that people who love the Lvl 3, 4, 5, ? spells don't like Blue Mage and should just wait for Arithmetician to be added because their idea of Blue Mage isn't ACTUALLY Blue mage. Just because someone likes it more for casting and learning monster skills, or the aesthetic, or whatever doesn't make the job any less important to them. And even if you force someone to concede that, OKAY, guess they don't REALLY like Blue Mage, it's STILL not wrong for people who love and play FFXIV to want a class to be adjusted to play it in all of FFXIV.

[Zareshi]

snip

Heh, limited. Was RDM's iconic aspect/identity that it could replace a healer/caster? Or that it pulled from both schools and could melee? Realistically the only unique thing was that it could Dualcast in FFV.

I'm not against the idea of having jobs specialize in other content (PotD/HoH, masked carnivale, etc), I just hate that BLU is set into it's box away from everything and that the choice is forced on me to either do this content alone, or run other/current content with friends. Afterall:

..while RDM shines in this side content, it's still a fully playable job in the rest of the game.

RDM can also fill that flex role in other side content too, deep dungeons just feature prominently in my mind for them since they're the solo kings in those places.

Going back to BLU though; for me the idea of BLU has always been fun. I don't know that I'd go so far as to say I find it funny, but it was really unique using the same skills that were trouncing your party against other monsters. Black Mage always got bigger fire/thunder/ice spells, white mages always got bigger cures. Blue Mage was throwing back breaths and some oddball abilities to either damage, support, or even hinder (Hi, Roulette) in fights.

As for XIV, how the abilities would be learned isn't as important to me, though it does make for some nice side content. Honestly I could see the only reason you originally (back in FFV etc) would have BLU learn abilities by experiencing them was as a tutorial to the player as to how that ability worked. 1,000 Needles does 1,000 damage, ok. Aqua Breath is party wide damage. Bad Breath royally messes up the party and run away on sight. Compared to Black Mage where Fire makes fire, Fire 2 makes bigger fire, etc.

For me BLU is about using the monster's spells back at them yourself. I'm understanding though of the world design of XIV, that to have it be a fully realized job the abilities would not be as ridiculous as they could be in older single player games where that was a more viable approach.

After throwing the gameplay and the toolkit out, there isn't much left...

The same could be said of any job, really.

That's one of the short comings to MMOs. You need to consider balance when you create something, and what works when it's a single player game won't always work on the larger setting (in this case the broken abilities). You can distill the essence of the class you want to make, and turn it into something unique that fits your world.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...concept_pitch/

This is a fantastic pitch and example. I would like to see some aspect of learning the abilities added to it, but it's not as important to me. That could even be done via job quests. I also find it funny they called renaming tank LB so far out.

[Fyce]

Personally I find arguments like this to be some of the weakest and most offensive, really. You're trying to diminish what other people like about the class to make it seem like the Limited version we're getting is some "true distilled essence of the job" that only the truly devoted and worthy will appreciate, as though you're qualified to decide that.

I'm asking what people like in BLU that is not related to the toolkit or gameplay, because quite a lot of people would gladly throw that away for it to fit into the mainstream mold of the game. It's not an argument or a stance to say that limited BLU is "the true BLU". You are putting words in my mouth and you are distording my intentions here. For someone calling me on my disrespect, that's pretty rude.

You call out some random guy for saying Blue Mage is a nuke mage, and then make a patently false claim that "95% of Blue Magic in older FF titles is situational or gimmicky". Of all of Blue Mage's spells, even in older titles where the most gimmicky and situational spells are, 30-40% are just straight damage spells of various elements. There are more straight damage spells in every iteration of Blue Mage (except Quina but he's about as unorthodox as it gets and no one is here whining BLU doesn't use a Fork except me), as opposed to support or debilitating or "quirky".
Do you even like Blue Mage to be misrepresenting it so much just to fill your Limited Job agenda? Like... what do YOU even like about it?

I literally counted myself for a few titles and gave my result in a post.
Here you go.
Who's making the false claims now? Please never argue with me again on something you don't know jack about. You're not even willing to open a freaking wiki to check what you're saying. Sure, I didn't checked EVERYTHING, but I also don't have an infinite amount to time to give people who are completly wrong.

It's honestly pretty disrespectful to people just for having their own opinions and liking different facets about the job. It's like me saying that people who love the Lvl 3, 4, 5, ? spells don't like Blue Mage and should just wait for Arithmetician to be added because their idea of Blue Mage isn't ACTUALLY Blue mage. Just because someone likes it more for casting and learning monster skills, or the aesthetic, or whatever doesn't make the job any less important to them. And even if you force someone to concede that, OKAY, guess they don't REALLY like Blue Mage, it's STILL not wrong for people who love and play FFXIV to want a class to be adjusted to play it in all of FFXIV.

I never disrespected someone's tastes. I respect other people's opinions too. But I have the rights to find their arguments weak. If you only care about flashy graphic effects and not about the iconic gameplay and toolkit of the job, I think it's fair to say that your idea of its "identity" doesn't weight the same compared to people who actually enjoy the job for what it provides aside from graphical effects. Or "coat of paint" if I was to use that popular expression these days.
And yes, it's wrong to argue for BLU specifically, saying stuff like "I wanted to main it! I waited 5 years!" if you don't really care about it in the end. That was my point. And I also condemn people who are saying that they'd prefer a butchered version of BLU just to fit the mold, or no BLU at all, since they are actually not respecting the people who like the idea of Limited Jobs and BLU being one of them.

-----

I actually thank jon041065 for engaging with me the way he did, trying to answer honestly to my question. And while the end paragraph was a bit shady and the post had some contradictions, it helped me grasp what could some people consider as the job's identity.
Same for Zareshi, who I actually confronted with a little spike at the start of my post. And while I don't agree with some statements (for example, saying that RDM's only unique thing was Dualcast, since I consider the support/healer aspect of RDM way more important because of my personal experience in multiple games of the franchise), it does help me understand how much people care about in terms of "identity".
Their answers also confirms what I've been saying this whole time:

But in the end it all comes down to individual preferences and tolerence in regards to how does someone values a job's identity, and how much of that identity they are willing to give up when it's pressed into the FFXIV's mold.

You, on the other end, contributed nothing. Pretty much the opposite, in fact.

So, not only you used a strawman on me while getting my intentions completly wrong, you also accused me of giving false information while you didn't even checked yourself. And after all that, you didn't even answered my main point and question.
I readed some of your posts and found that you were pretty considerate and reasonable. But my opinion just completly shifted. Because if I was a disrespectful person with my post, then you're my king with yours.

[jon041065]

snip

What contradictions? And how was my last paragraph shady? I wanted a job that I could main that could use enemy spells and also be different than current jobs beyond just those spells. Also pointed out that this is basically FFXI blue mage. It just happens to look like FFV blu. That to me, it's a pretty big stretch to say this is the most faithful version of blue mage when at best it matches one version of the job and XIV will have the only version that is locked out of large parts of the game by design.

That's not to say that I think XI blue mage is bad. My character actually knows all but six of the spells, my Tizona and Almace are close to being done, and I have a pretty good set for nuking/cleaving. I can play XI to get that style of blue mage and wanted XIV's own take on the job. Instead we are getting FFXI with FFV glamour minus the whole game being available to it.

It seems that to you, blue mage identity is in part based around what the spells have done in past FF games. For myself and some others, it's a job that can use enemy abilities and what the spells feel like to use instead of what they are programmed to do. This is why we can see blu fitting in 14 with only giving up some of its identity. That's not to say that how you see it is wrong but you can't say that we are wrong and just want a "watered down" version of the job. You're welcomed to think it would be watered down but don't say that we are asking for that. To us, what we are getting is job built around a mini-game. A fun looking mini-game (that may or not be updated often enough) but that's no excuse for it not to also be available for use in the full game. They should finish what they proposed with blue mage but also finish actually making a combat job for the rest of the game. A lot on our side said it's fine if this didn't happen till the 6.0 expac. It would actually let them double dip on the work that is already done somewhat to boost interest in that expac even more.

[Alleo]

Personally I find arguments like this to be some of the weakest and most offensive, really. You're trying to diminish what other people like about the class to make it seem like the Limited version we're getting is some "true distilled essence of the job" that only the truly devoted and worthy will appreciate, as though you're qualified to decide that.

I dont really know why people go around and say that this is the faithful version when Blue was used in a party in other games, had it get skills from monsters(which it would still do anyway) and other than that it was different enough from game to game as far as I can see.

So having it in it like its now but give it a rotation for duties too would imo not change the job itself that much. I mean its not like people can always use all the skills all the time anyway since you need to choose around 20 of them and its not like we can learn every single spell from a monster either, its still restricted to those spells that they choose.

Thus they could have just said that you are restricted from using the duty if you dont have all the skills, then if you have all the skills unlocked they could just give you certain skills for duties and the rest is solo only content. This could even finally introduce a job that is less static and maybe more advanced to use. But instead they went the easiest way with it and just left it completely unbalanced and solo only.

[Anyan]

This has probably been answered somewhere already so I'm sorry for asking again but there are so many posts spread between several threads and pages. Does anyone know what the Japanese player base thinks about this version?

[Lastelli]

This has probably been answered somewhere already so I'm sorry for asking again but there are so many posts spread between several threads and pages. Does anyone know what the Japanese player base thinks about this version?

Discussions on the jp forum are similar to those we have here, but much more well mannered and indirect of course. Some people are cautiously optimistic, others are mildly worried.

[PatronasCharm]

SE making BLU as their first "Limited" Job is a good risk as it's a popular job, not sure if it's as popular and wanted as DNC, but regardless, it's a good risk. I'm sure SE has a plan too, if it flops. There's plenty of great ideas roaming about the forums of ways it could potentially be kept as is, but still be able to not be "Limited." I for one am excited as it's been a job I've been wanting to play for a good while; just like them introducing RDM for Stormblood brought me, a customer and now vested subscriber, on-board with FFXIV and I even bought the expansions JUST to play RDM, even if it wasn't completely the way I pictured it.

Blue Mage will do so too; and since it wont even require any of the Expansions to play its content, it might bring potential customers to stroll on in and maybe be part of our community.

So I for one am on-board, because even if it fails in the eyes of the hardcore, it will bring new people into the community and in hopes, perhaps snag them by a hook, and reel them in for what's to come in Shadowbringers.

And come on! It's Blue Mage! Let's see where SE goes with it

[Mibgestalt]

I literally counted myself for a few titles and gave my result in a post.
Here you go.
Who's making the false claims now? Please never argue with me again on something you don't know jack about. You're not even willing to open a freaking wiki to check what you're saying. Sure, I didn't checked EVERYTHING, but I also don't have an infinite amount to time to give people who are completly wrong.

I never disrespected someone's tastes. I respect other people's opinions too. But I have the rights to find their arguments weak.

Dude, you DID give false information. I read your post. I don't think it's fair to discount spells as gimmicks just because they do elemental damage. Those are by definition direct damage spells! Like... you completely arbitrarily count a spell as gimmicky just because it has an element to prove your point and get your 95% figure. So a spell has to do non-elemental, direct damage with no status effects to be a damage dealing standard spell in classic Final Fantasy and to fit into FFXIV accurately? In that case Blue Mage is literally the most suited classic spellcaster, because 2 non-elemental direct damage spells is more than almost any other classic job. Is classic Black Mage a gimmick heavy class? It traditionally only has one direct damage non-elemental spell, Flare. Or classic Summoner, because the majority of their spells are elemental, so why are they DPS? Should they be limited too because 95% of their spells are "gimmicks"? You are actively misrepresenting the jobs skillset to reach that 95% number. But I won't say "please never argue with me again" and insult your knowledge, intelligence, or care for the class, because that is disrespectful.

If you only care about flashy graphic effects and not about the iconic gameplay and toolkit of the job, I think it's fair to say that your idea of its "identity" doesn't weight the same compared to people who actually enjoy the job for what it provides aside from graphical effects. Or "coat of paint" if I was to use that popular expression these days.
And yes, it's wrong to argue for BLU specifically, saying stuff like "I wanted to main it! I waited 5 years!" if you don't really care about it in the end. That was my point. And I also condemn people who are saying that they'd prefer a butchered version of BLU just to fit the mold, or no BLU at all, since they are actually not respecting the people who like the idea of Limited Jobs and BLU being one of them.

You say in one line you're not meaning to disparage anyone's opinions, and then immediately say that other ideas of the class don't have as much "weight". Saying "if you don't really care about it in the end" is implying people who don't agree with you to a certain degree don't care about the class. I'll say your argument is disrespectful, but (and the sentence in italics in my previous post was sarcasm) I would never accuse or insinuate that you or anyone else doesn't care about the class regardless of what they like about it and how they want it implemented in the game, because we are all here caring enough about it that we are discussing and arguing about it. Well, short of someone saying "I don't care about Blue Mage, but...", but there are people doing that both in support of, and against the Limited version.

You can find arguments weak all you'd like, I do too. But do you realize that asking questions like "What do they even like about Blue Mage" has an aggressive, dismissive tone? Those have the implication that you can't imagine a single thing someone likes about Blue Mage that would allow them to both want it in the game fully, and like the job. Maybe you don't see it, and if it wasn't your intent, great. I (hopefully) didn't say anything attacking YOU individually, if it came off that way, I apologize. However, that doesn't make the argument or method you're using any less offensive. It seems that, relatively, a lot of people agreed with my original response to you and how your points came off, and while I don't normally like to appeal to what people think collectively, when we're talking about how your words can be interpreted and the tone they convey, I think it's valid.

[jon041065]

SE making BLU as their first "Limited" Job is a good risk as it's a popular job, not sure if it's as popular and wanted as DNC, but regardless, it's a good risk. I'm sure SE has a plan too, if it flops. There's plenty of great ideas roaming about the forums of ways it could potentially be kept as is, but still be able to not be "Limited." I for one am excited as it's been a job I've been wanting to play for a good while; just like them introducing RDM for Stormblood brought me, a customer and now vested subscriber, on-board with FFXIV and I even bought the expansions JUST to play RDM, even if it wasn't completely the way I pictured it.

Blue Mage will do so too; and since it wont even require any of the Expansions to play its content, it might bring potential customers to stroll on in and maybe be part of our community.

So I for one am on-board, because even if it fails in the eyes of the hardcore, it will bring new people into the community and in hopes, perhaps snag them by a hook, and reel them in for what's to come in Shadowbringers.

And come on! It's Blue Mage! Let's see where SE goes with it

It is not a good risk at all unless they have a backup plan for it as you said but then why haven't they released a statement to say that yet? If they had used onion knigh/freelancer/unique XIV job to test content like this there would be much more positive feedback.

Here's a post where someone explained why people on our side are worried about the future of the game.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...72#post4831672

We see it as either blue mage was wasted on content that will fail or SE is starting down a path that could ruin the game if they keep going down it. This isn't speculation as a lot of us have seen WoW go down the path of too much splitting of content.

Blue mage will bring in some new players and entice some to return but it will have the opposite effect to others. It could have been a major selling point IF it was a full job with fun side content.

"And come on! It's Blue Mage! Let's see where SE goes with it "
No thanks. It's a blue mage mini game. Not really a blue mage combat job.