5.0 Job change wishlist

[Genoreaper]

Feel like this needs a new threads this one turned into two people measuring their epeen.

[Ghishlain]

Like as an example, if you're using cure/cure II, a lot, then Assize and Asylum will pretty much always be up due to SOL II, regardless if you have zero or 3 lilies.

You do realize that SotL II is not guaranteed to reduce 5 seconds to either Assize or Asylum? It's a 20% chance of occuring when you crit Cure I or Cure II. So, it's a 20% proc on a spell that crits maybe 20%-25% of the time when you stack Crit you're looking at a 5% chance that Cure will reduce the recast time. That means you'd need to cast it about 20 times (50 seconds in GCDs!) to get those 5 seconds back.

Hardly worth while to spam Cure 20 times when those 20 GCDs can be used for much more effective means.

All the lilies do is show you that you're not overhealing.

Lilies only generate when you heal someone who isn't at capped HP value. This doesn't mean you're not overhealing with Cure or Cure II. If the target only requires 200 HP heal to top off and you crit them for 10K on Cure you'll generate that one Lily and still create 9,800HP of overhealing.

But hey, most of the people pushing the regen meta wouldn't know this because they don't play it.

I knew all this and I still think it's a terrible system. It's inefficient, and propagates inefficient play by focusing on six skills (Cure, Cure II, Tetra, Asylum, Divine Benison, and Assize) and ignores every thing else in the kit.

[HyoMinPark]

To emphasize this, take a look at Bard. What does the gauge actually do? Nothing. It's there to basically tell you when you should be singing something, and alternating between the DoT and the main offensive skills.

You are absolutely wrong with regards to this. SaitoHikari already addressed it, but as another BRD main, you need to stop speaking about things you have zero idea about.

For your information, the BRD gauge doesn’t even have any visual indicator with regards to our DoTs, so you’re wrong in saying that it tells us when we switch between “DoTs and something else”—DoTs are only displayed on the enemy’s health bar, and it is up to us to visibly watch them. It does, however, contain information about the length of our songs (so as to tell us when we need to transition into a new one), the length of our Straight Shot buff (so as we can know when to refresh it, because this is an extremely high priority buff for BRD), and how much Repertoire we have (which affects our skillset/rotation in 2 out of 3 of the song).

In the case of Wanderer’s Minuet, the gauge shows us our Pitch Perfect stacks—Pitch Perfect is the strongest at 3-stacks (and the strongest skill in our arsenal short of Barraging Empyreal or Refulgent), and the Gauge is crucial in telling us when we can use it. It is also crucial for allowing us to keep track of our PP stacks, because there are cases where you actually do not use 3-stack PPs, but 2-stack PPs (AOE situations where targets are multi-DoT’d and situations where there are multiple critical hit-enhancing rBuffs present—mainly Battle Litany and Chain Strategem). For Mage’s Ballad, it flashes when Bloodletter/Rain of Death reset, indicating that we should immediately weave it between our next two GCDs for more damage and so as to put it on cooldown again for another quick reset. For Army’s Paeon, it shows us our Repertoire up to 4 stacks to inform us of how high our haste buff currently is—the mechanic for Army’s is lackluster, and the gauge isn’t needed too much for Repertoire, but it is needed to tell us when we are to transition, because Army’s is almost always clipped at 10 seconds remaining unless we are in the middle of AOE, or if the boss is going to transition and we will lose out on a lot of Minuet+Raging Strikes.

BRD cannot function in its Stormblood incarnation without its gauge. WHM, on the other hand, can—playing WHM with no lilies is the exact same as playing it while spending your lilies. The only minor difference is now your big oGCDs (Tetra, Asylum, Assize, Divine Benison) have slightly shorter CDs. WHM would function exactly the same without the lily mechanic and its gauge, hence why so many deem it bordering on worthless. I seriously urge you to actually read what both I and SaitoHikari have written, as you are talking about our job like you know it better than we do (especially with your rude response to him about basically ignoring the entirety of his post because he snapped and said that he was tired of you derailing thread after thread to reflect your own personal agenda—something I cannot even blame him for). Saito may even have a better understanding of BRD than I do, as he has had more experienced with the hardcore aspects of it, and where as I have only started to optimize it since the end of Creator.

For the record, I do play WHM. It may not be my main, but I think I have a fairly decent understanding of it, and I know that a lot of people in this thread (the WHM mains) have an even better understanding of it than I do. You are blinded by your skewed perceptions of raiders, parsers, FFLogs and the like, and you are so convinced that you are 100% right about everything you say that it is incredibly astounding. I think you need to come back to earth and accept that maybe, just maybe, the people in this thread are perhaps a bit more experienced than you are even willing to giving them credit for.

As for Bards themselves... Bards as they are now are in a rather 'perfect' state. We only have three real weaknesses, all of which are minor problems compared to what every other job has to wrestle with design-wise.

1) Our lack of a knockback prevention skill (which MCH also lacks). Perhaps this is something that should never be addressed for obvious reasons - we don't really *need* it unless the party as a whole has failed a mechanic somehow (O5S and the lack of boxes for the Bard/MCH to use to defend themselves against the knockback wind in particular).
2) Army's Paeon being used as filler compared to the other two songs. I imagine this will be addressed come next expansion - perhaps for the return of a Flaming Arrow-type skill to be used when we reach max stacks during Army's Paeon.
3) No way to force Refulgent Arrow during our openers, being purely at the mercy of the RNG. This is probably something that will be addressed come next expansion.

To also bring this thread back to it’s original intent, I am glad to see a fellow BRD asking for similar QoL improvements that I did previously before this thread turned into the crapshow that it is now.

1.) I would love a knockback prevention; I know that people think it’s “too OP” because BRD/MCH are so mobile, but since every DPS (and all healers and 1 tank) can prevent knockback, it would be nice for BRD/MCH to have a similar skill rather than try to time Repelling Shot. If the mitigation skill was something exclusive to 1 or 2 jobs, I could honestly be fine with BRD/MCH not having a knockback mitigator. But it’s basically every DPS job but these two.
2.) I agree that Army’s could use a little bit more love. I suggested bringing back Flaming Arrow for usage during Army’s for more AOE potential to make Army’s a stronger song, and to give it something more instead of Quick Nock spam until 4 Repertoire...and then Quick Nock spam some more. Mage’s has really strong potential, and Minuet does as well, so I’d love to see Army’s have more to it than a simple Haste buff.
3.) And this change would just be a godsend.

Another request I had was to remove the enmity dumps from Refresh/Tactician and add it to Repelling Shot a la Elusive Jump. That way BRDs don’t have to blow a utility skill to manage opening burst and not have it in the unfortunate event that a DPS dies and needs TP regen (and that there is no Goad/Invigorate). Plus, it would make Repelling Shot more than a situational skill (timed knockback mitigation).

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Hmm I wonder who has a better understanding of White Mage, Yoshi-P and the dev team who plays this way I've pointed out, or 4% of the player base who who raids with parsers then complains about healers being boring and complains that content is boring.

Why on earth would the developers ever listen to the raiders who aren't playing the content correctly in the first place, and use parser tools as a crutch? There is no way in hell that the developers can or even should listen to the people using the parsers, because what the parser users are asking for is for content to be nothing but DPS checks that you can just stand still to maximize dps with because your ego will be bruised if you don't get some high marks on a third party site using a parser that only guesses how HoT's and DoT's work to begin with. The parser also guesses how long combat is, thus very trivial things will have large differences.

Those 4% of players have a far better understanding than the developers who don't raid nor min/max to such a degree. Hence why good healers are able to perform their role while casting as few heals as possible. Intent matters little when gameplay functionality differs. If we played in the manner the dev team envisions, we could outright remove healers entirely from dungeon content. Trash mobs are so pitifully weak if you do single pulls, you simply don't need a healer, period.

Math and numbers do not lie. In fact, I can cite an example HyoMin and I did a few days ago. We did two Phantom Trains, one where we fully DPS'd and one where neither of us did anything except heal. In the latter, I had several Lilies yet my overall contribution to the group were 90% less than in the run where I dealt damage. Neither group were remotely in danger yet I was completely useless due to how low Normal mode content is tuned. I played "correctly," however the group would have benefited significantly more if I had been replaced by any DPS and they ran with only one healer. Apparently, healer DPS means nothing though...

Parsers don't guess the battle logs. They calculate everything in real time. Perhaps you would understand this if you bothered to hear the opposing side and not present yourself as some authority on a subject you know staggeringly little about.

"You don't even raid" = "do you even lift" for games. I play the normal raids, I play the 24-player alliance raids. I pass over the high end content because nobody is willing to play it without a parser crutch. To me, players using parsers are rubbish script kiddies who didn't earn their clear. They used inaccurate information they were not supposed to have to clear it, and then complain it's boring and make asinine demands to change the content.

Playing Ridorana Lighthouse was fun the first time because I was guaranteed at least one run where parsers were dead and nobody knows the mechanics, and players real skill shows through. 13 players will still alive, 21 players got the "Didn't Stop, Made it Pop" achievement, 19:27 remaining, finished at 1:48PM on 2018-05-22. The second time I played it a week later? Gee wow, cleared in half the time with only one wipe, on the boss that we didn't wipe on in the first day-one attempt. Parses started showing up at 2018-05-24 9:24 AM. I cleared everything that was new that I could before the parser users started sucking the fun out of everything.

Content which is all mind numbingly easy. This is why people care about Savage when it comes to job optimization and not the normal mode equivalent. In the latter, you can die twenty times and it have absolutely no impact because half the content is braindead. As noted above, if I did standard single pulls in dungeons, healers have literally no value. Your favorite job is completely worthless because I simply won't take enough damage. I reiterate my aforementioned example of Phantom Train. When I played the Kisai way, focusing on virtually no DPS and spamming Cure II, I contributed a meager 10% compared to my previous run where I properly balanced healing and DPSing. I could have easily AFK'd, made a coffee and let them kill it. It would have changed nothing. I was that useless.

... if I applied this asinine logic to say, computer science. By your standards, my having no idea what I'm doing is a demonstration of skill. And when I learn the flow of things after a week, I've "sucked the fun of it."

Skill is someone gradually improving, which can only be accomplished with visible information. Without parsers, someone can spam Full Thrust combos without ever realizing doing so severely impacts their damage, thus they cannot improve without the information only theorycrafters provide. And how do theorycrafters obtain such valauble datat? Parsers. You are so utterly blinded by your seething hatred for the raid community you have lost any semblance of a rational thought. You accuse raiders of sucking out the fun and spreading toxicity yet your astounding levels of arrogance have completely derailed a thread that was never about parsers. So who is actually causing drama here?

[IttyBitty]

I'm sure several other jobs that I have little experience with have gauges that behave similarly.

I can help add some. Could possibly argue a couple, like BLM, I suppose. Foul isn't *huge* but it's a consistent DPS increase as a reward for maintaining your gauge.

DRK: Delirium (+8s to blood weapon duration, which gives 10% ASPD & -20% TP cost)
PLD: Intervention (!!)
MCH: Overheating as Wildfire comes off CD for massive burst
BLM: Foul (big burst every 30 seconds)
SAM: Hagakure; Kaiten + Higanbana; Guren (massive burst potential)
WAR: Maximising Berserk + Inner Release window (massive burst potential)

To act like most jobs in the game don't have mechanics revolving entirely around the status of their gauges that provide them pretty huge utility or damage windows, like a limit break does, speaks volumes about your knowledge of this game.

WHM does not have a compelling gameplay system to work around such as Aetherflow (decision making on which abilities you can use your stacks on) or Draw (decision making on which cards to save, who to apply them to, when to apply them).

All it has are lilies that appear when you cast one of two GCD heals that you try your best to avoid using as much as possible because of GCD economy.
Which then disappear as soon as you touch any affected oGCD.
Which don't do much of worth when they are consumed.
Which provide no avenue for decision making since you can't hold onto them, unless you hold all affected oGCDS for a minuscule benefit that won't let you use said skill any more often than you otherwise would (because oGCD usage is dictated by the flow of the fight, not when it comes off cooldown).

No additional depth of gameplay. No impact on DPS/HPS output or workflow. They should not exist. WHM have every right to detest them.

Also: Kisai once more shows that she doesn't know what the hell a parser actually is.

I really wish I could just blow the person off as a troll, but the massive walls of text they've been writing suggests he actually believes what he's saying.
It's sad in a way...God forbid "Yoshida Sama" lets lilies generate with regens, they'll probably go insane.

Given how long they've been at this, it's either the longest troll game ever, or, as Occam's Razor would suggest, this is what they actually think.

[Exiled_Tonberry]

I really wish I could just blow the person off as a troll, but the massive walls of text they've been writing suggests he actually believes what he's saying.
It's sad in a way...God forbid "Yoshida Sama" lets lilies generate with regens, they'll probably go insane.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

I really wish I could just blow the person off as a troll, but the massive walls of text they've been writing suggests he actually believes what he's saying.
It's sad in a way...God forbid "Yoshida Sama" lets lilies generate with regens, they'll probably go insane.

Oh, she actually does. Prior to Stormblood's release, she released a video where she spam healed the tank despite him being at 95% HP. This trend continued throughout the dungeon, alongside multiple wipes due to her complete lack of aoe healing. When legitimately believes HoT being allowed to tick is bad gameplay.

[KisaiTenshi]

So you're not even going to read the argument

When I say "Stopped reading there", it means I stopped reading the post and went on to read others and respond to others who aren't being cranky. People who are routinely throw insults, I skip over in favor of reading people's posts who aren't wasting my time.

Why should anyone even respect your arguments then? You're clearly not here to engage in a discussion in good faith if you're going to open with "Stopped reading there", you're here for the exact reason that I suspected upon entering this thread - to push your agenda on everyone else with no thought of self awareness.

Do you seriously think anyone ever argues about the healer meta in good faith, if you do, I have a bridge to sell you.

Are you sure you aren't projecting? This sounds like you are talking about yourself as well.

You don't usually throw insults, but you sure know how to work the passive aggressive.

Also before you volunteer to throw me in there too, I am totally fine with admitting I am passive aggressive sometimes.....to people who do it to me first and I have a great memory. I am of the belief that you don't dish out passive aggressiveness if you are afraid of getting some back at you.



I really hope you are not accusing ME of saying you suck, because if you look at my post I did not say that anywhere.

Two wrongs don't make a right. I generally regard you as one of the better posters on the forum, because you at least try to explain where you are coming from. Other posters are like this:

I'm going to say this again for devil's advocate purposes.

Bard Wanderer Minuet gauge is composed of two aspects, the song timer and the arrow stacks. How many stacks you have equates to the strength of Pitch Perfect when used, and once used, you have to charge it up again.

And you will note that if you don't play the DPS the way SE intended it, you do will do rubbish damage, hence the gauge shows you why.

If you play WHM, SCH or AST, none of their meters help you DPS. All WHM's lilies do is show you that you're not overhealing. SCH's Fey Gauge show you that you're actually using aetherflow and not just sitting on it. AST's gauge shows you what the cards do instead of blinding royal-roading things and hoping that was the one that does a party buff instead of personal buff. What does the lily actually do? Nothing. You get them if you aren't overhealing.

I have to keep saying "It's not a limit break gauge" because if you're viewing it as such, then you are missing the entire point of how the game dishes out procs. And as I've said probably a dozen times in the thread already, the Lilies neither hinder nor help you. The DPS gauges only help you. Thus if you want to use the raider healer meta, you're free to ignore the gauge, where as if you ignore the gauges on DPS, you're probably not playing optimally, but you're free to ignore those gauges too.

[Ilenya]

And as I've said probably a dozen times in the thread already, the Lilies neither hinder nor help you.

Then what's the point of them?

Actually, I am going to take issue with you on SCH gauge not helping DPS, because that HoT from Fey Union is AMAZING for DPSing. Does it directly affect my DPS? No, but it gives me windows where I can. I could Adlo-Excog-Fey Union and DPS for a long while before I even have to think about healing, and if I have Aetherflow to spare, I can last even longer.

[IttyBitty]

And you will note that if you don't play the DPS the way SE intended it, you do will do rubbish damage.

*laughs in NIN*