Thread: 5.0 Job change wishlist

Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

There's nothing wrong with the lilies. Use the skills with the lower recast when they are ready to fire if you need it. To emphasize this, take a look at Bard. What does the gauge actually do? Nothing. It's there to basically tell you when you should be singing something, and alternating between the DoT and the main offensive skills. With the WHM, the lilies and confession stacks only generate when you aren't overhealing. If you don't always have three lilies, you are playing the job wrong. That's the point. Thus the reward for doing the job correctly is having other related skills be usable more frequently. Don't ever expect this to change. It is not a limit break gauge.

Okay. I've freaking had it with you. You've managed to derail yet another perfectly good thread by jumping in and shoving in your opinions on how other people should play the game, when you assume how things work from things you've never done (and likely have zero interest in doing so).

What's worse, you're talking about how my class works to justify your views on how your class is supposed to work. Bard gauges tell us how long our songs will last, and to plan accordingly based on our crit procs. For Wanderer's Minuet especially, it -does- tell us how strong our Pitch Perfect is going to be if we decide to use it. It -is- a mini-limit break for us. To pretend it isn't for the sake of twisting your argument is absolutely insulting.

Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

The worst healers in this game, are the ones that do not understand that it's ok to stop casting. Pre-pull regen/medica ii/aspected benefic/aspected helios is a direct result of players being told to do the raider meta without knowing why. Spamming regen, medica ii/aspected benefic/aspected helios is a direct result of raider meta being incorrectly applied.

If you're response to me is going to to be "you're wrong" again, save it. The proof is in the pudding.

Yeah, you're wrong.

Raiders have even more reason to be ticked at people who prepull regen. Why? Because it means the healer is generating unnecessary amounts of emnity and overhealing like hell when there aren't even any unavoidable party-wide AoEs going out. It means the tank has to spend extra GCDs building more emnity before they can safely switch to DPS stance. And it also means the healer is wasting an incredible amount of MP for no benefit at all.

I'm a Bard. I would freaking know, it's my job to use my skills to alleviate the burdens of everyone in my party, whether it be damage reduction, debuff removal, healing potency increase, or resource management, all while juggling my DPS. O8S runs especially will fail or succeed based on how the two healers manage their MP, how the tanks manage their cooldowns against the frequent tankbusters, and how I respond to their demands. Before you say 'oh they'll just keep the regens up 24/7 to maximize their DPS', no, it does not work that way at all. The high-end raids do enough damage that there are very few situations where regens alone will heal the party back up in time before next big AoE comes out.

You don't even raid. Why do you keep speaking matter-of-factly on things that you have zero experience in? What is your end goal here? You did this when you recorded yourself in Antitower a year ago (and you even admitted yourself then that it was your first time playing that dungeon period, with the exact same arguments you're presenting in this thread RIGHT NOW), and I and many others gave you advice to help improve then. And said advice wasn't even anything remotely close to raider optimization advice.

So, I will repeat what I told you a year ago: Why do you insert yourself so passionately into arguments regarding matters in which even you yourself admit that you have little experience in? At least back then, you admitted your lack of experience. Now, almost one year later, you behave largely the same as before, the main difference being you pretend that you have actual experience and victimize yourself afterwards, which is far worse.

But you keep inserting yourself into arguments, derailing thread after thread and even continuing the same exact arguments across multiple threads by bringing up things that would be unrelated until you decide it becomes relevant (like the way you took a shot at raiders out of nowhere in this thread when talking about the lily system, because of course you had to), presenting yourself as an expert on these matters, when you are anything but that. Do you have any sense of self-awareness?

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Now to actually answer the original intent of the thread...

Having played every job to at least 60+, my main issue with the lily system is the following: It doesn't have any basis in lore compared to the other job gauges. Consider how the AST job gauge heavily emphasizes their card setup, or the SCH fairy gauge shows how much power has been built up in their fairy to be used. Or, better yet, WHM's eternal rival in the lore - BLM, incorporating their usage of Fire, Ice, and Lightning aether. The lilies are quite tacked on and thematically out of place in comparison, like the developers ran out of ideas and that it only exists for obligatory purposes. Maybe WHM doesn't need it, but the fact of the matter is, in its current incarnation, it could be removed entirely and many WHMs wouldn't even notice the difference.

How could the developers improve it? I would rather it be taken out and replaced with something that actually represents a WHM's usage of -their- three elements - Wind, Water, and Earth. Though actually achieving this would be harder than it sounds, as it seems around 75% of a WHM's toolkit is currently considered to be wind-aspected.

As for Bards themselves... Bards as they are now are in a rather 'perfect' state. We only have three real weaknesses, all of which are minor problems compared to what every other job has to wrestle with design-wise.

1) Our lack of a knockback prevention skill (which MCH also lacks). Perhaps this is something that should never be addressed for obvious reasons - we don't really *need* it unless the party as a whole has failed a mechanic somehow (O5S and the lack of boxes for the Bard/MCH to use to defend themselves against the knockback wind in particular).
2) Army's Paeon being used as filler compared to the other two songs. I imagine this will be addressed come next expansion - perhaps for the return of a Flaming Arrow-type skill to be used when we reach max stacks during Army's Paeon.
3) No way to force Refulgent Arrow during our openers, being purely at the mercy of the RNG. This is probably something that will be addressed come next expansion.

Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

Okay. I've freaking had it with you.

Stopped reading there. Why throw your argument away by opening with an insult?

"You don't even raid" = "do you even lift" for games. I play the normal raids, I play the 24-player alliance raids. I pass over the high end content because nobody is willing to play it without a parser crutch. To me, players using parsers are rubbish script kiddies who didn't earn their clear. They used inaccurate information they were not supposed to have to clear it, and then complain it's boring and make asinine demands to change the content.

Playing Ridorana Lighthouse was fun the first time because I was guaranteed at least one run where parsers were dead and nobody knows the mechanics, and players real skill shows through. 13 players will still alive, 21 players got the "Didn't Stop, Made it Pop" achievement, 19:27 remaining, finished at 1:48PM on 2018-05-22. The second time I played it a week later? Gee wow, cleared in half the time with only one wipe, on the boss that we didn't wipe on in the first day-one attempt. Parses started showing up at 2018-05-24 9:24 AM. I cleared everything that was new that I could before the parser users started sucking the fun out of everything.

Now please. if you don't want more discussion about lilies and WHM, then stop bringing it up. Some of you just really want me to be wrong, even when I'm objectively right about the lilies and how SE wants you to play WHM.

Originally Posted by Tsumdere

The very first thing you learn when studying game design in university - the designer is not always right (in fact a lot of the time, they are horribly wrong). Lilies are a terrible design for many, many reasons.

But not the reason people are citing. You may also have heard of the term "Emergent gameplay". "The Meta" is not emergent gameplay it's berating users for not adhering to the fastest strategy so that they get better parses for fflogs. Remove the parser from the picture and people would discover that yes, the game is balanced, no healers do not need to maximize DPS, and yes the content is fun.

The same killjoy raiders complaining about lilies are the same ones who think the content is boring. Stop and smell the roses.

Originally Posted by Ilenya

I'm not a WHM player, so correct me if I'm wrong, but even in the context of all the conversations here...

Shouldn't you use the lilies the moment you hit 3? There's no bonus that I recall to having lilies (correct me if I am wrong) so holding onto them is literally wasting their potential unless you somehow have nothing to use it on.

As I said, it's not a limit break bar. If you are waiting for 3 lilies by casting cure before using the 4 skills that are affected, then you're just wasting those skills. There are 4 oCD's, you can burn all of them one after the other, and all the lilies do is shorten the recast timer. If for some reason you need all 4 oCD's at the same time, then that will be the only time you are even impacted by the lilies, because the recast times will be longer.

Assize has a 60s recast, 3 lilies = 48sec (SOL I), + X (SOL II)
Asylum has a 90s recast, 3 lilies = 72sec (SOL I) + X (SOL II)
Tetra has a 60s recast, 3 lilies = 48sec (SOL I)
Divine Benison has a 30s recast, = 24sec (SOL I)

Like as an example, if you're using cure/cure II, a lot, then Assize and Asylum will pretty much always be up due to SOL II, regardless if you have zero or 3 lilies. All the lilies do is show you that you're not overhealing. If you don't always have three lilies by doing what you normally do, then you'll just have to settle for the normal recast times of the 4 skills the lilies remove recast time from. The actual way the game appears to do this is by subtracting 5 seconds for SOL II, or 4/10/20% upon the lily being generated for SOL I. The recast time isn't suddenly added back to the other actions if you use the lilies. If they are already available to use, then the lilies do nothing, because using any of the 4 skills resets the lily counter and the recast times.

https://youtu.be/JQSyPv45FrY

But hey, most of the people pushing the regen meta wouldn't know this because they don't play it. I could be wrong, because as I said, Assize is up pretty much all the time for me and, I don't pay attention to the lilies, so I just use it if it's available. So people shouldn't get themselves twisted in a knot over the lilies. None of the gauges on any of the jobs do anything but tell you what activates the procs. They are not limit break bars.

Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Stopped reading there. Why throw your argument away by opening with an insult?

"You don't even raid" = "do you even lift" for games. I play the normal raids, I play the 24-player alliance raids. I pass over the high end content because nobody is willing to play it without a parser crutch. To me, players using parsers are rubbish script kiddies who didn't earn their clear. They used inaccurate information they were not supposed to have to clear it, and then complain it's boring and make asinine demands to change the content.

Playing Ridorana Lighthouse was fun the first time because I was guaranteed at least one run where parsers were dead and nobody knows the mechanics, and players real skill shows through. 13 players will still alive, 21 players got the "Didn't Stop, Made it Pop" achievement, 19:27 remaining, finished at 1:48PM on 2018-05-22. The second time I played it a week later? Gee wow, cleared in half the time with only one wipe, on the boss that we didn't wipe on in the first day-one attempt. Parses started showing up at 2018-05-24 9:24 AM. I cleared everything that was new that I could before the parser users started sucking the fun out of everything.

Now please. if you don't want more discussion about lilies and WHM, then stop bringing it up. Some of you just really want me to be wrong, even when I'm objectively right about the lilies and how SE wants you to play WHM.





But not the reason people are citing. You may also have heard of the term "Emergent gameplay". "The Meta" is not emergent gameplay it's berating users for not adhering to the fastest strategy so that they get better parses for fflogs. Remove the parser from the picture and people would discover that yes, the game is balanced, no healers do not need to maximize DPS, and yes the content is fun.

The same killjoy raiders complaining about lilies are the same ones who think the content is boring. Stop and smell the roses.

So you're not even going to read the argument, you're just going to ignore and deflect, and put words into other people's mouths and project? I didn't even talk about parses, but you felt the need to bring it up. I wonder why. I don't have anything against non-raiders (I pug almost everything without a second thought, as I'm of the belief that running everything with a static group of people closes off your perception to the true state of the game and its community, and playing with different people is the best way to learn how to adapt to every possible situation quickly), but I do have issues with people that are being completely disingenuous about it. Know that I only felt compelled to join in largely because you decided to talk about how Bard gauges worked in a completely wrong way, to support a misguided view on how WHM lilies worked.

I started playing at the start of HW, and I was too scared to raid until A9-12S was released, when I decided I wanted to improve myself as a Bard and help everyone I ran across in turn. Even the thought of doing Sephirot EX, two patches after it was released, scared me halfway to death, but I decided I really wanted the bird - and I wanted to EARN it. So you won't see me going around belittling non-raiders, unless they are speaking as you are right now. What you're doing right now is basically the equivalent of a toxic party member blaming everyone else for their own shortcomings, with no regard for the group effort. If you took 'you don't even raid' as a personal insult rather than an observation leading into questioning your personal stake in this argument, then that's on you.

Why should anyone even respect your arguments then? You're clearly not here to engage in a discussion in good faith if you're going to open with "Stopped reading there", you're here for the exact reason that I suspected upon entering this thread - to push your agenda on everyone else with no thought of self awareness.

Maybe if you'd actually read my post, you'd see that my problem with the lily system isn't even for raid reasons, it's purely from a game design standpoint, lore-wise and in terms of responsiveness. It's a fact that the WHM lily system is a very unresponsive system compared to every other job gauge out there, and as a student of design myself, it really irks me. (It is also quite the teaching lesson, as well.)

Now that we've established that, perhaps it's time to let this argument die.

Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

But hey, most of the people pushing the regen meta wouldn't know this because they don't play it. I could be wrong, because as I said, Assize is up pretty much all the time for me and, I don't pay attention to the lilies, so I just use it if it's available. So people shouldn't get themselves twisted in a knot over the lilies. None of the gauges on any of the jobs do anything but tell you what activates the procs. They are not limit break bars.

I'm going to say this again for devil's advocate purposes.

Bard Wanderer Minuet gauge is composed of two aspects, the song timer and the arrow stacks. How many stacks you have equates to the strength of Pitch Perfect when used, and once used, you have to charge it up again.

Summoner gauge transforms based on usage of Aetherflow skills, leading into being able to use Dreadwyrm Trance, which further leads into summoning Bahamut-egi itself. In some cases, Dreadwyrm Trance and Bahamut-egi might as well be a caster limit break in terms of overall strength when properly utilized.

For a non-DPS example, let's take Scholar's fairy meter. Their meter increases based on usage of Energy Drain (the only offensive Aetherflow skill that SCH has) and Excogitation (a preventive buffer heal that activates when the target's HP drops below 50%). It's used to execute Fey Union, one of, if not -the- strongest heal over time skill in the entire game, and Fey Union drains the fairy meter.

I'm sure several other jobs that I have little experience with have gauges that behave similarly. If these are not the definition of something that behaves like a limit break bar, then I don't know what your standards for one are. Lilies are very boring in comparison (-especially- compared to the fairy meter, which is somehow even more simplistic than lilies in design but more intuitive in practical use), and that's where most of the grievances lie.

Stop using my (and other peoples', for that matter) class to justify your arguments.