Consolidated White Mage 4.0 Feedback Thread

[Cynfael]

You know what it feels like? It feels Yoshi's making WHM into his little vision of what a healer should look like, while making the others what healers NEED to be like in this game. I know that's probably way off, but it's just how I see it.

Slight detour from the previous topic, but while I admire Yoshi for the work he's done in revamping and elevating FFXIV as a whole, everyone would do well to take his comments with a grain of salt. The man's job is to make sure FFXIV is successful, not to execute personally every role on his development team. He's also entitled to his own opinions, just as the players are entitled to theirs and will continue to do whatever they want within the parameters of the game.

For example, when Yoshi says he doesn't consider healer DPS to be mandatory, he's playing it smart by not antagonizing the customers who enjoy the game one way and who are unlikely to change. Those of us who believe that the choice not to DPS at all as a healer is a selfish and lazy one will wink at him and keep doing what we're doing. It's a win-win from the customer service side of things.

[javid]

snip

Agreed with you! But to Tonberry point; bc Yoshi doesn't think healer NEED to dps; Yoshi has purposefully tuned the raids to require 0 healer dps. Meaning all healer dps is bonus for the party meeting dps checks! (some ppl find that a good thing like me! Others are mad and want healer dps to be required in the dps checks.... like maybe Tonberry).

How do you please the hardcore players and causal players?? YOU give them each a few bones is how!! Take your SCH/AST and leave the causal his WHM....why is that such a problem for some of you?? lool.

Actually he said that while learning raid content healers will probably have to add dps. He said that the 4 man casual content is designed without the need for healers to dps.

Link provided in which interview he did say healer dps isn't mandatory

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...aler-to-DPS%21

Why is one job out of 13 in the game designated as "casual" and deserves to not have any helpful or strong mechanics for itself?
If that's actually true, it's a very stupid move on Yoshi's part, to be blunt about it.

And creating interesting and fun mechanics isn't only catering to hardcore players. I'm sure casual players would love a fun system on their WHM that rewards them and makes them feel powerful. If anything, this lily system will turn more players off of WHM rather then draw them in. No one wants to sit around playing with RNG, and CD reduction is very BORING.

Casual doesn't have to mean boring or weak.

It's actually not just one job if you think about it. If we sat down right now we could breakdown our current job system into top tier jobs vs mid tier; in terms of ceiling level and player skill required to master them. Easy current example

MCH........ vs DRG (drg's only saving grace is its piercing dmg it gives brd; that lil BL is cute but that alone would not keep it in comp if not for piercing)


And Causal doesnt have to mean boring or weak is your take on what options he's presented to the FFXIV community! Not to say your thoughts DONT MATTER. But I'm saying that he is saying THERE ARE EVEN MORE THOUGHTS THAT SAY DIFFERENTLY, than you and those like you.

Because some people love the job WHM and has raided with it since 2.0.
Because some people find it unfair that WHM has suddenly been designated "casual" by Yoshi and is now stuck at the low end of the stick until perhaps 5.0.

Honestly if I can't play WHM without feeling like I'm severely handicapping my raid, I'm quitting healing. I enjoy WHM, and I want to play WHM, but it's obvious their vision for the job is crippling it.

Again those are your definitions... which are find for you and those that think like you do; but the MASSES...... (I think you're ignoring this common theme) Want stuff for them too! Also consider the argument "why WHM?"; they could have done this to any or even many of the classes and some other guy would say just what your'e saying "Why Sch? Why PLd? WHY mnk? why blah blah blah?" And SE would respond "why not?" the masses by in large pay the bill so the masses by and large must be pleased first! If you wanna be mad at anyone be mad at the masses that can't handle difficult rotations and monitoring several cds at once!! (I know I give all subpar dps in dung hell.....and I'm probably on several blists b/c I think if you wanna play then you should put in the effort to play WELL.) I'm also the kind of player to run in a dung and see a tank in max ilv 270 gear in tank stance, doing single target combos on a multi add pull and I'm tempted to ragequit and try again in 30min...... I know I need help....

Stating that Yoshi has purposefully tuned the raids to require 0 healer DPS may be a bit misleading. It's more accurate to say that the raid DPS checks are tuned specifically with minimum Tank and DPS role contributions taken into account (excepting the Healer role).

It's a small distinction, but I believe that it's an important one. The first statement implies to me that healers should consider themselves exempt from any contribution beyond basic healing, so sayeth the Yoshida. The second statement acknowledges that the math in raid design deliberately doesn't account for healers, leaving it up to individual parties and players to determine the optimal degree of healer DPS participation.

Agreed! That's why I see it as a bonus IF a good healer can also dps while sustaining the party MAKES the fight that much easier!

[Feidam]

Agreed with you! But to Tonberry point; bc Yoshi doesn't think healer NEED to dps; Yoshi has purposefully tuned the raids to require 0 healer dps. Meaning all healer dps is bonus for the party meeting dps checks! (some ppl find that a good thing like me! Others are mad and want healer dps to be required in the dps checks.... like maybe Tonberry).

Actually he said that while learning raid content healers will probably have to add dps. He said that the 4 man casual content is designed without the need for healers to dps.

[Cynfael]

Agreed with you! But to Tonberry point; bc Yoshi doesn't think healer NEED to dps; Yoshi has purposefully tuned the raids to require 0 healer dps. Meaning all healer dps is bonus for the party meeting dps checks! (some ppl find that a good thing like me! Others are mad and want healer dps to be required in the dps checks.... like maybe Tonberry).

Stating that Yoshi has purposefully tuned the raids to require 0 healer DPS may be a bit misleading. It's more accurate to say that the raid DPS checks are tuned specifically with minimum Tank and DPS role contributions taken into account (excepting the Healer role).

It's a small distinction, but I believe that it's an important one. The first statement implies to me that healers should consider themselves exempt from any contribution beyond basic healing, so sayeth the Yoshida. The second statement acknowledges that the math in raid design deliberately doesn't account for healers, leaving it up to individual parties and players to determine the optimal degree of healer DPS participation.

[Feidam]

And here is an excerpt from another recent interview that should clarify the answer.

Yoshida: By now, I think a feeling has developed that healers have to participate in DPSing in instanced dungeons. Even if it's just a silent pressure, it is there. Because of that feeling, there were some players who may have felt anxious about joining as a healer. For someone like me who isn't focused about clear time, I'm fine as long as we can clear it. And I'll try to take things more slowly if I see someone who might be new. However, it's been getting more and more difficult for healers, which I'm sorry about. On my personal account, I play all the roles, and I like to have the feeling that I can play through instanced dungeons on my favorite role.

Since things are more serious in raiding, on the other hand, you'll definitely want to DPS for the first clear. As item levels go up and you're after repeat clears, the roles may shift. (laughs)

F: I see.

Yoshida: That said, sometimes when I'm participating in instanced dungeons, I'll queue as tank or healer because the matchmaking is so fast, but in the case of healer, although attacking itself isn't hard, I feel that the stance switching narrows the field of players who are interested in healing. When looking at the data, even though many players have healers at the appropriate job level, they won't be participating as healer. When considering the reasons for this, it seems that there are two main ones - it's too much work, and being asked to DPS.

F: There are many who feel that way.

Yoshida: So we decided to calculate healers' attack magic potency based on MND. Since you no longer need Cleric Stance, you can Holy whenever you feel like it. After stunning the enemies with Swiftcast Holy, you can then catch up with heals. With this increased level of comfort, the number of people participating in instanced dungeons as healer will definitely go up.

[Cynfael]

Yoshida snippets.

While I maintain that asking healers not to twiddle their thumbs shouldn't be viewed as excessively imposing, I think that Yoshi is taking the correct position in standing outside the fray. It's generally best for the game that more players actively play more roles; we can only hope that they choose of their own accord to play them well.

More on the original topic, I'm looking forward to seeing what changes await us at the launch of 4.0 since we know the dev team has continued to work on WHM (and assumedly other) mechanics since April. I don't think there's much more to say on the media release build at this point, so I'm just waiting for launch.

[Feidam]

While I maintain that asking healers not to twiddle their thumbs shouldn't be viewed as excessively imposing, I think that Yoshi is taking the correct position in standing outside the fray. It's generally best for the game that more players actively play more roles; we can only hope that they choose of their own accord to play them well.

More on the original topic, I'm looking forward to seeing what changes await us at the launch of 4.0 since we know the dev team has continued to work on WHM (and assumedly other) mechanics since April. I don't think there's much more to say on the media release build at this point, so I'm just waiting for launch.

I too am curious as to what ultimately happens. I usually play scholar as my healer i like shields and dots. Whm never interested me much felt boring. Was hoping the expansion would bring good things since i love the elemental aesthetic the whm has with the holy and healing.

Also I think healer should throw some dps spells too, however my opinion shouldn't be what drives someone else. They could just not be comfortable throwing dps with their skill level or anxiety. It's not my place to tell them to play another class especially if it is casual content. However, in statics or party finder groups we can set whatever standards we want. The game has all skill levels and types. That is just my opinion of course.

[OcieKo]

Yoshida Interview excerpt

Since things are more serious in raiding, on the other hand, you'll definitely want to DPS for the first clear. As item levels go up and you're after repeat clears, the roles may shift. (laughs)

I get the feeling, people aren't connecting with the point of this line. Pretty sure by "first clear" he means week 1-3 of raids where your gear is literally below the design of running the raid smoothly. Which after a few weeks of tome and turn in farming, a groups DPS should be on par with the expected tank sticking to mitigation, healer to healing, DPS to DPS. But hes still acknowledging that day 1 of savage, its going to be tightroping the dps check that way. So that extra bit of healer dps can make it easier to be on the far side of it. But after its in full swing, its just clear speed not wipe or win. World/Data Center/Server firsts, not "newbie" firsts.

sorry i was thinking of something else, just went and looked at the newest tooltip or whatever, it's a very short CD

trying to think what was 35s, but looking...i just can't figure it out now. maybe it was on another class i'm looking into the tooltips about...

Thanks for finding the tooltip. Yep this makes it a bit easier to use at a decent time rather than blow it right away unlike the 35s misassociation. Doesnt really change the acquisition timer, but makes it easier to use. 7 more days til the fog of war clears... Either way its CD is still a min of 30s since its about the fastest you can flip in cards.

[Saraphin]

I get the feeling, people aren't connecting with the point of this line. Pretty sure by "first clear" he means week 1-3 of raids where your gear is literally below the design of running the raid smoothly. Which after a few weeks of tome and turn in farming, a groups DPS should be on par with the expected tank sticking to mitigation, healer to healing, DPS to DPS. But hes still acknowledging that day 1 of savage, its going to be tightroping the dps check that way. So that extra bit of healer dps can make it easier to be on the far side of it. But after its in full swing, its just clear speed not wipe or win. World/Data Center/Server firsts, not "newbie" firsts.



Thanks for finding the tooltip. Yep this makes it a bit easier to use at a decent time rather than blow it right away unlike the 35s misassociation. Doesnt really change the acquisition timer, but makes it easier to use. 7 more days til the fog of war clears... Either way its CD is still a min of 30s since its about the fastest you can flip in cards.

Yeah, i'm burning on fumes from doing an addition to my actual house. i know some job has a new 35s timer...but for the life of me, too tired to really associate it.

this does however, put a lot of power in the AST hands (not that i'm against Jobs having unique things...but...this seems a bit too much. every draw they can have a burst of DPS or some healing: ie Tank busters) but...i don't think this should come at the costs of the players of WHMs and the players of SCHs to an extent..

I know, realistically, it's going to be used 2 times a minute, but it just...seems a bit much. a bit Shiny new Toy that Makes it so there are no bad cards but can all be really good cards and yes, i'm aware that ALL cards can have some use, but with Arrow and...something else (again wiped out tired right now) being now given an auto spread...it's looking more like they're getting a lot more buffs than they need at this point.

[OcieKo]

i know some job has a new 35s timer...but for the life of me, too tired to really associate it.

this does however, put a lot of power in the AST hands (not that i'm against Jobs having unique things...but...this seems a bit too much. every draw they can have a burst of DPS or some healing: ie Tank busters) but...i don't think this should come at the costs of the players of WHMs and the players of SCHs to an extent..

I know, realistically, it's going to be used 2 times a minute, but it just...seems a bit much. a bit Shiny new Toy that Makes it so there are no bad cards but can all be really good cards and yes, i'm aware that ALL cards can have some use, but with Arrow and...something else being now given an auto spread...it's looking more like they're getting a lot more buffs than they need at this point.

Im still awaiting something more concrete on the base aoe card effects, tho i agree its rediculous if its true. Tho part of getting 2 chances of lord lady per minute, it also means were failing to set up any buff utility for 1 minute. Either way this technically pans out weaker than what I wanted to fix the 2 cds for no gain issue, which was control over Royal Roads activation, but seems interesting, so next week ill play with and make an opinion on it. Unlike some people here i wont complain about a layer of RNG and having to use single target heals, or complain that being able to use my CDs more often is undesirable. Now we just need a 25% RNG Mechanic on AST and well have a full set from out of 2 to out of 6. (Draw 1/6, Redraw 1/5, Royal Road 1/3, Minor Arcana 1/2, awaiting 1/4).

There never have been bad cards, just more expensive to use ones. In comparison to WHM like this forum is about, itd be like having to click off Presence of Mind intentionally so you could use Asylum earlier. Tho in our case we usually throw away defense, power replenishment, cooldowns, and speed just to give people what they want...
Sometimes i think AST would be more fun without royal road. Just spread and draw. One card to save for the right moment, one to put in the best spot now, this later point is near dead in current AST play. I like royal road and all, but it feels like it limits my choices more often than not. Don't get to use nearly enough Enhanced Boles, Extended Arrows, or Expanded Ewer/Spire, its always wtf wheres my balance, never oh sweet thanks for the TP... My crappy DPS Goadarai and Battery Likened Mage to the rescue (crappy DPS, because I personally suck at DPS, I OT and Heal for a reason). Also BLM acronym usage win, and yes I seriously plan on mastering the art of giving out MP/TP on the kings of Damage Per Hit type DPS jobs, cause I'll probably never get a pure support in games again.