Hardcore is not a dirty word

[Bled]

I can agree with those first three points but.... ton of camping?

So like, a game is hardcore if you spend ages sitting around waiting for something to happen? That's like saying being in a queue for a theme park ride is hardcore.

Huge time investment needed, that's all decided by the player. An MMO doesn't NEED a lot of time wasted on it to offer rewards, it all depends on the player and their play-style. A person can hit max level and do end-game content without having to give up their day job to do it.

And the supply & demand thing isn't actually a good thing. Relying on item drop rates to be able to purchase equipment is what caused R.M.T to come into existance, and R.M.T allows players to 'buy their win'.

Camping is preparing, the points between battle that include strategizing for the next battle... anything can sound bad if you define it incorrectly.

If you really want to use a theme park as an example then here you go:

Top Hill Dragster, longest wait for a roller coaster - Hardcore roller coaster enthusiasts, more complex, viewed as more of a thrill

Gemini, extremely short wait for ride - casual roller coaster, not as complex, a moderate thrill.

Like i said earlier i can play Hello Kitty Island Adventure hardcore, but the game its self is not hardcore.

Supply and demand is essential to any economy... RMT's are the problem not supply and demand..

[Pandastirfry]

Camping is preparing, the points between battle that include stigmatizing for the next battle... anything can sound bad if you define it incorrectly.

If you really want to use a theme park as an example then here you go:

Top Hill Dragster, longest wait for a roller coaster - Hardcore roller coaster enthusiasts, more complex, viewed as more of a thrill

Gemini, extremely short wait for ride - casual roller coaster, not as complex, a moderate thrill.

Like i said earlier i can play Hello Kitty Island Adventure hardcore, but the game its self is not hardcore.

Supply and demand is essential to any economy... RMT's are the problem not supply and demand..

Your examples are terrible, a casual roller coaster rider may decide that they want to ride the big boy coaster too, and a hard core would go on both.

here's the deal, a thing is not hard core, a person is hard core.

If you play hello kitty hard core...guess what you're a hard core Hello kitty player (wow that would be something to be proud of)

if you play FFXIV hard core, Huzzah you're a hard core FFXIV player.

if you play FFXI hard core.....okay by now you get my drift.
So there you go there's your time investment that is one of your criteria for hard core games...

Lots of camping and preparation, well if you're a Hard core hello kitty player, you're going to prep for litter box cleaner corner or whatever goes on there...

High learning curve, usually hard cores make game mechanics out to be way more complex than they actually are, so I'm leaving this one alone.

hard to level: Hard Core hello kitty players get max level in a week bro, wanna try to do it in 3 days!, something tells me a hello kitty game would be hard to level in...mostly because it's hello kitty

and economy based on supply and demand...every mmo has this, even Team Fortress 2. and as to RMT...buddy that is supply and demand in it's purest form for an MMO.
There you go, by your criteria Hello Kitty Adventure Island is a hard core game!

[Bled]

Your examples are terrible, a casual roller coaster rider may decide that they want to ride the big boy coaster too, and a hard core would go on both.

here's the deal, a thing is not hard core, a person is hard core.

If you play hello kitty hard core...guess what you're a hard core Hello kitty player (wow that would be something to be proud of)

if you play FFXIV hard core, Huzzah you're a hard core FFXIV player.

if you play FFXI hard core.....okay by now you get my drift.
So there you go there's your time investment that is one of your criteria for hard core games...

Lots of camping and preparation, well if you're a Hard core hello kitty player, you're going to prep for litter box cleaner corner or whatever goes on there...

High learning curve, usually hard cores make game mechanics out to be way more complex than they actually are, so I'm leaving this one alone.

hard to level: Hard Core hello kitty players get max level in a week bro, wanna try to do it in 3 days!, something tells me a hello kitty game would be hard to level in...mostly because it's hello kitty

and economy based on supply and demand...every mmo has this, even Team Fortress 2. and as to RMT...buddy that is supply and demand in it's purest form for an MMO.
There you go, by your criteria Hello Kitty Adventure Island is a hard core game!

lol a casual player can play a hardcore game... i never said otherwise. my point went right over your head. and my roller coaster analogy applies perfectly if you want a hard core experience as a casual roller coaster rider you can get in line for the top hill dragster that dose not change the fact the the roller coaster is hardcore...

if all games followed your logic then we would live in a world with no criteria by which judge, base, or make a game. SE could give us a blank piece of paper and say welp you make the game what you want it to be so there you go, you make your own fun. I all ready stated you can be a hardcore player and play casual games and visa versa but games can be labeled as hard core and casual too.

no every MMO has varying degree of supply and demand, but im sure you don't understand value. RMT's need to be stopped not the economy... you are at this point arguing to argue and its getting down right bad.

[Pandastirfry]

lol a casual player can play a hardcore game... i never said otherwise. my point went right over your head. and my roller coaster analogy applies perfectly if you want a hard core experience as a casual roller coaster rider you can get in line for the top hill dragster that dose not change the fact the the roller coaster is hardcore...

if all games followed your logic then we would live in a world with no criteria by which judge, base, or make a game. SE could give us a blank piece of paper and say welp you make the game what you want it to be so there you go, you make your own fun. I all ready stated you can be a hardcore player and play casual games and visa versa but games can be labeled as hard core and casual too.

no every MMO has varying degree of supply and demand, but im sure you don't understand value. RMT's need to be stopped not the economy... you are at this point arguing to argue and its getting down right bad.

your point didn't go over my head...it went over yours.

I used your criteria...you know the ones you posted up thread, the ones you said made a hard core game. the problem is you criteria is so vague and can be applied to anything that you basically said yourself that every game is hard core if it meets the most arbitrary of criteria, Hell you even agreed that WoW was a hard core game.

I'm done with this, you don't even know what you're saying anymore.

[Bled]

your point didn't go over my head...it went over yours.

I used your criteria...you know the ones you posted up thread, the ones you said made a hard core game. the problem is you criteria is so vague and can be applied to anything that you basically said yourself that every game is hard core if it meets the most arbitrary of criteria, Hell you even agreed that WoW was a hard core game.

I'm done with this, you don't even know what you're saying anymore.

Since your just embarrassing yourself more and more ill just throw this out for you so you can drop your frivalus argument that has lead you no where.

SE developers, more specifically FFXIV developers, along with Yoshi, and along with Wada stated they were making a casual game. so lets use your basic logic on this one since higher thinking eludes you so, if there is a casual game there is a.... wait for it.... HARDCORE wow that was so hard! Just like if someone states there is good there must be.... you got it now? that's right evil!

And if next you counter argue that same line you all ready used "just because they said it dose not mean its true" argument ill leave you with 3 words Sir Isaac Newton.

And last but not least again if you read my post above that criteria i gave i state was just PARTS of what hardcore entails. Again ill say it there are varying degrees of hardcore and you know what FF11 fit the bill, and so does WoW's end game content. As to which of the above mention is more hardcore is left for another discussion. So please there's the door you can leave now.

[Pandastirfry]

Since your just embarrassing yourself more and more ill just throw this out for you so you can drop your frivalus argument that has lead you no where.

SE developers, more specifically FFXIV developers, along with Yoshi, and along with Wada stated they were making a casual game. so lets use your basic logic on this one since higher thinking eludes you so, if there is a casual game there is a.... wait for it.... HARDCORE wow that was so hard! Just like if someone states there is good there must be.... you got it now? that's right evil!

And if next you counter argue that same line you all ready used "just because they said it dose not mean its true" argument ill leave you with 3 words Sir Isaac Newton.

And last but not least again if you read my post above that criteria i gave i state was just PARTS of what hardcore entails. Again ill say it there are varying degrees of hardcore and you know what FF11 fit the bill, and so does WoW's end game content. As to which of the above mention is more hardcore that left for another discussion. So please there's the door you can leave now.

okay you're just arguing yourself in circles and making no head way, But what the hell does Sir Issac Newton have to do with anything...this I have to hear.

[Bled]

okay you're just arguing yourself in circles and making no head way, But what the hell does Sir Issac Newton have to do with anything...this I have to hear.

You really are in a corner lol

you counter argued earlier saying that popular belief has nothing to do with validity no matter who its coming from.

Sir Issac Newton was a mathematician as id hope you know and Newton's work has been said "to distinctly advance every branch of mathematics studied" but just because he said the stuff, with your line of thinking he too would be false because screw popular belief i want to just pontificate and say Why? all day long, who cares about established meanings.

FFXIV developers are accredited in my book if they say Hardcore and Casual games exist far be it for me to say otherwise with no proof.

That line you fixated on was to counter a possible argument i thought you might bring up.

[AmyRae]

here's the deal, a thing is not hard core, a person is hard core.

Mmm. No.

You could design a game with an exclusively hardcore play style in mind. That would make the game hardcore.

FFXI was very much a hardcore game in its beginning, and any review of the game or its expansions reflected the enormous time commitment required to make substantial progress.

In my opinion, hardcore versus casual play is directly proportional to time commitment, whether that means logging many hours to make progress, or worse, being made to work on the game's schedule as well (such as HNM windows, waiting 15 minutes to complete an airship ride, waiting till the right moon phase for HQ attempts, etc.). If the game is designed to take up your time with an egregious amount of repetitive tasks or senseless idling and preventing you from doing even routine leveling solo or in a small group, it's a hardcore game, no question. It's very difficult to play a game like that casually because you'll find it difficult to make any progress (maybe even making no progress at all) in a short amount of play time.

So, yes, it's possible for a game to be hardcore.

[Pandastirfry]

Mmm. No.

You could design a game with an exclusively hardcore play style in mind. That would make the game hardcore.

FFXI was very much a hardcore in its beginning, and any review of the game or its expansions reflected the enormous time commitment required to make substantial progress.

In my opinion, hardcore versus casual play is directly proportional to time commitment, whether that means logging many hours to make progress, or worse, being made to work on the game's schedule as well (such as HNM windows, waiting 15 minutes to complete an airship ride, waiting till the right moon phase for HQ attempts, etc.). If the game is designed to take up your time with an egregious amount of repetitive tasks or senseless idling and preventing you from doing even routine leveling solo or in a small group, it's a hardcore game, no question. It's very difficult to play a game like that casually because you'll find it difficult to make any progress (maybe even making no progress at all) in a short amount of play time.

So, yes, it's possible for a game to be hardcore.

And I would say that from a design stand point everything you mentioned is not "hard core" but poor design. Basically, I can spend several hours in game just playing around in Ul'dah making my LS mates laugh by dancing in my skivvies. I did this the other night for 7 hours, is that "hard core" I put in a lot of time and effort making my friends laugh and it was rewarding too, It took me 3 hours to rank my lancer from 6 to 15, grinding the crap out of dodo's solo, I guess that was just casual. Time spent doing something does not make something hard core...it is just time you will never get back that you could have been doing something actually fun.

[Madruk]

And I would say that from a design stand point everything you mentioned is not "hard core" but poor design. Basically, I can spend several hours in game just playing around in Ul'dah making my LS mates laugh by dancing in my skivvies. I did this the other night for 7 hours, is that "hard core" I put in a lot of time and effort making my friends laugh and it was rewarding too, It took me 3 hours to rank my lancer from 6 to 15, grinding the crap out of dodo's solo, I guess that was just casual. Time spent doing something does not make something hard core...it is just time you will never get back that you could have been doing something actually fun.

Different strokes, different folks. Most equate hardcore as accomplishing something within the game as far as progression, not dancing naked. However you could in theory say you danced hardcore. Just not that you are a hardcore dancer. This is acceptable.