Hardcore is not a dirty word

[Pandastirfry]

Yeah. Hardcore.
What's not to get?

Hardcore essentially just means more commitment required. That usually means time invested into learning increasingly complex game mechanics and having the patience to work with a leveling system. As long as a game is short, and or quick to play, it's casual friendly.

Skill required isn't necessarily related, as it's more of a byproduct of the time invested.

Honestly, I think there's room in this game for both core and casual content. However, casuals shouldn't get upset by something that takes a lot of time to do for a big reward and cores shouldn't complain that the game is too "easy".

The point I'm trying to make here, is that FFXI didn't have complex game mechanics. What it had was bog-standard gameplay for a late '90's early '00's MMO, it was really no different from Ultima or Everquest, it was just set in Final Fantasy Millieu and had time sinks out the wazoo. most of the "FFXI was hardcore, FFXI was better...blah blah blah" is fueled largely by nostalgia, not anything actually concrete.

Time invested can be a component of a "hardcore" game, but in the case of XI, you put in a lot of work for very little reward. Drop rates were ridiculous (0 of 200 for the Monster Signa...wooo HARDCORE!!) and you spent so much time waiting, no not playing, literally sitting on your butt in Jeuno waiting for something...anything to happen.

and really I'm not complaining about something taking a lot of work or time to get done (ask me how many times I've killed Arthas in WoW...if you guessed 0 you'd be right) what I'm taking exception to is this rose colored glasses look to the sins of XI, there was no big reward at the end of those tunnels...it usually was an oncoming train of further grind

[Konachibi]

I spent most of my time on FFXI running around killing orcs using a battle mechanics first introduced in..... Final Fantasy 1. Not hard to learn a system that had already been going for almost 20 years.

That is, of what little time I spent playing it.

When I did join an LS during that small amount of time though most conversations went:
"Hey do you guys wanna go to [insert place] and do [insert activity]?"
which was then followed by:
"Ah no, we've done that so many times it's boring."

If that's hardcore then I'd rather be considered casual, even if I play the game for 5-10 hours a day.

[Bled]

The point I'm trying to make here, is that FFXI didn't have complex game mechanics. What it had was bog-standard gameplay for a late '90's early '00's MMO, it was really no different from Ultima or Everquest, it was just set in Final Fantasy Millieu and had time sinks out the wazoo. most of the "FFXI was hardcore, FFXI was better...blah blah blah" is fueled largely by nostalgia, not anything actually concrete.

Time invested can be a component of a "hardcore" game, but in the case of XI, you put in a lot of work for very little reward. Drop rates were ridiculous (0 of 200 for the Monster Signa...wooo HARDCORE!!) and you spent so much time waiting, no not playing, literally sitting on your butt in Jeuno waiting for something...anything to happen.

and really I'm not complaining about something taking a lot of work or time to get done (ask me how many times I've killed Arthas in WoW...if you guessed 0 you'd be right) what I'm taking exception to is this rose colored glasses look to the sins of XI, there was no big reward at the end of those tunnels...it usually was an oncoming train of further grind

"really I'm not complaining about something taking a lot of work or time to get done", that's exactly what you are arguing... you sound as though you played FF11 if your convictions you are portraying are true then you must be a masochist.

[Pandastirfry]

"really I'm not complaining about something taking a lot of work or time to get done", that's exactly what you are arguing... you sound as though you played FF11 if your convictions you are portraying are true then you must be a masochist.

No what happened was is that I was once like you, convinced that FFXI had depth and complexity and was truly rewarding, then I took a break for 2 months (this was in 2005) and when I cam back I found that I wasn't having fun anymore, the seams were beginning to shows. I started noticing how long it was taking me to get anything done, when I used to be able to spend a whole night playing, I found leveling up was just repetative, I mean hell what did you do after you hit the level cap...YOU KEPT GRINDING, you ground out merit points, you waited for monster to spawn, it was like a rat on a wheel going round and round and never getting anywhere, it just never stopped and then as Kona has pointed out, trying to actually get content done was like pulling teeth because of the lethargic player base, top that off with nearly deserted servers and it just started dragging my will to play down further. and then it dawned on me...I had never had fun with the actual game, I had had fun with my linkshell mates and they had all long since abandoned ship, and thus so did I, and I have never looked back.

Content that takes time and is hard to do should be rewarding, FFXI just never had any of that reward...it was a perpetual motion machine of mediocrity that should be left in the past where it belongs.

[Bled]

No what happened was is that I was once like you, convinced that FFXI had depth and complexity and was truly rewarding, then I took a break for 2 months (this was in 2005) and when I cam back I found that I wasn't having fun anymore, the seams were beginning to shows. I started noticing how long it was taking me to get anything done, when I used to be able to spend a whole night playing, I found leveling up was just repetative, I mean hell what did you do after you hit the level cap...YOU KEPT GRINDING, you ground out merit points, you waited for monster to spawn, it was like a rat on a wheel going round and round and never getting anywhere, it just never stopped and then as Kona has pointed out, trying to actually get content done was like pulling teeth because of the lethargic player base, top that off with nearly deserted servers and it just started dragging my will to play down further. and then it dawned on me...I had never had fun with the actual game, I had had fun with my linkshell mates and they had all long since abandoned ship, and thus so did I, and I have never looked back.

Content that takes time and is hard to do should be rewarding, FFXI just never had any of that reward...it was a perpetual motion machine of mediocrity that should be left in the past where it belongs.

What happened to you is you grew out of the game... that happens to a lot of people. However that does not validate that FF11 was not a hardcore game. Hardcore games take a lot of invested time and you don't like that any more, that does not mean hardcore has changed it means you have changed.

[Pandastirfry]

What happened to you is you grew out of the game... that happens to a lot of people. However that does not validate that FF11 was not a hardcore game. Hardcore games take a lot of invested time and you don't like that any more, that does not mean hardcore has changed it means you have changed.

You're right, I grew out of the game. The trouble is, when you grow out of something, you tend to look at it objectively, I saw FFXI for what it was, it was never hardcore, it was just a bog standard MMO for its generation.

oh and also Final Fantasy is not a hardcore franchise, all of them can be beaten by anyone who decides to play them...usually in about 40 hours or less (or so the story goes...)

[Bled]

You're right, I grew out of the game. The trouble is, when you grow out of something, you tend to look at it objectively, I saw FFXI for what it was, it was never hardcore, it was just a bog standard MMO for its generation.

It fits the definition of a hardcore game to the "T" just like Disgaea, and just like Persona. You state that you are objectively looking at the game i would argue no, you are trying to rationalize to yourself why you no longer like the game when you at one time did. You at no point defined why FF11 was not a hardcore game yet you gave a mountain of objective evidence as to why it is a hardcore game.

HIGH TIME INVESTMENT

Of course i disagree that the mechanics were not complex, however you are allowed to have your opinions.

[Dragonlord]

You're right, I grew out of the game. The trouble is, when you grow out of something, you tend to look at it objectively, I saw FFXI for what it was, it was never hardcore, it was just a bog standard MMO for its generation.

oh and also Final Fantasy is not a hardcore franchise, all of them can be beaten by anyone who decides to play them...usually in about 40 hours or less (or so the story goes...)

Well any game that takes 40+hours is usually pretty hardcore. I dont know how long you have been playing video games, or how many u have played, but 40hours is a time investment. Compared to games that take 10-15hours to beat. Also if u think ffxi wasnt hardcore, or want to know what mmo is hardcore, then by all means go back to early ffxi days, and go to sky/sea/limbus and do all the time sinks involved and then hopefully after all your hard work, get the drops. That is pretty hardcore if u ask me. I was insulted when u wrote this. I cant belive your discrediting SE for there hardcore nature. That is simply absurd!! FFXI along with every single final fantasy title. "Yes i have played them all". Has been nothing less than hardcore/timesinks galore. Maybe you should explain to us what you percieve to be casual to hardcore. I look forward to seeing your response on this one.

[Gramul]

The point I'm trying to make here, is that FFXI didn't have complex game mechanics. What it had was bog-standard gameplay for a late '90's early '00's MMO, it was really no different from Ultima or Everquest, it was just set in Final Fantasy Millieu and had time sinks out the wazoo.

Madam. Are you implying Ultima didn't have complex game mechanics?

[Pandastirfry]

Madam. Are you implying Ultima didn't have complex game mechanics?

I didn't imply that, I implied FFXI didn't, you see Ultima did it first (sorta), by the time FFXI came out it was already old hat.