Hardcore is not a dirty word

[Pandastirfry]

I question if XI was not hardcore what is a hardcore mmo? Because XI is probably one of the most hardcore mmos out there along side Lineage and Everquest in my opinion.

I question the very idea of a Hard Core MMO at all...

[Konachibi]

I question the very idea of a Hard Core MMO at all...

I question if such a thing even exists.

I think, like the dreaded 'immersion', 'hardcore' gameplay is just as subjective.

[Pandastirfry]

I question if such a thing even exists.

I think, like the dreaded 'immersion', 'hardcore' gameplay is just as subjective.

finally some one gets it!

[Konachibi]

finally some one gets it!

Hooray! Do I get a cookie?

The more I hear people talk about FFXI on here the more I want to give it another go, but I won't because I already know all the low levels zones are empty which would leave me mindlessly grinding away on lowbie mobs for months on end just to get to an area where I may 'possibly' find one or two players.

[Bled]

finally some one gets it!

I chalk people dismissing premises as subjective as just plain lazy.

especially when those same people are given objective proof and they say "nopeeeeeee i dont seez it".

I can feed you guys more and more objective proof however i cant make you see it. kinda like that old saying "you can lead a horse to water, but you cant make them drink".

[Konachibi]

I chalk people dismissing premises as subjective as just plain lazy.

especially when those same people are given objective proof and they say "nopeeeeeee i dont seez it".

I always saw hardcore in a different way though.

Like on WoW some of my guild were 'hardcore' raiders. They'd be online each and every day getting the right gear, all the right stats and enchants, all the right skills, all the right talents trees, then doing the same raid all the time, practicing till they eventually got it right and won. Heck even I did, lost count how many times we all went into Icecrown Citadel, spending hours and hours wiping on Sindragosa trying to get it right.

That's how I see hardcore, it wasn't waiting or supply and demand or anything like that. It was trying your damned hardest to push yourself to the limit, doing everything you can to push forward and make it to the end.

So to me a hardcore game isn't defined by the content it gives you, it's just something that gives you a means to push yourself and focus on accomplishing difficult goals.

[Bled]

I always saw hardcore in a different way though.

Like on WoW some of my guild were 'hardcore' raiders. They'd be online each and every day getting the right gear, all the right stats and enchants, all the right skills, all the right talents trees, then doing the same raid all the time, practicing till they eventually got it right and won. Heck even I did, lost count how many times we all went into Icecrown Citadel, spending hours and hours wiping on Sindragosa trying to get it right.

That's how I see hardcore, it wasn't waiting or supply and demand or anything like that. It was trying your damned hardest to push yourself to the limit, doing everything you can to push forward and make it to the end.

So to me a hardcore game isn't defined by the content it gives you, it's just something that gives you a means to push yourself and focus on accomplishing difficult goals.

That sounds hardcore to me... i don't know why you would think i would say otherwise, what you said fits the bill of hardcore but so does FF11. All that you just said insert FF11 there and bam there you have it.

Just like immersion there are varying degrees, and my original post never said otherwise except for i wanted a more Hardcore experience that SE dished out in FF11.

As much as i disliked WoW i never said the end game was not hardcore.

[Konachibi]

That sounds hardcore to me... i don't know why you would think i would say otherwise, what you said fits the bill of hardcore but so does FF11. All that you just said insert FF11 there and bam there you have it.

But in WoW it's not hard to level (quite the opposite in fact), it can be solo'd up to end-game content (within 2 weeks), it doesn't have a high learning curve (just a high perfection curve), there isn't tonnes of camping, you don't have to invest a great deal of time into the game and the economy was just like a normal economy, good stuff was high price, bad/useless stuff was low price.

None of it fits into your description of a hardcore game.