Hardcore is not a dirty word

[Bled]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

Wait, what was your point?

fail wiki link lol

this post is soaked in irony

[Viridiana]

fail wiki link lol

this post is soaked in irony

Hmm? Just saying, everyone thinking something is hardcore doesn't automatically make it so.

Now, if you'd like to actually explain what was so hardcore about it, feel free; but saying "Everyone here believes FFXI was hardcore, so it is," is, well, a logical fallacy. That holds true regardless of whether or not XI was, in fact, hardcore.

[Bled]

Hmm? Just saying, everyone thinking something is hardcore doesn't automatically make it so.

Now, if you'd like to actually explain what was so hardcore about it, feel free; but saying "Everyone here believes FFXI was hardcore, so it is," is, well, a logical fallacy. That holds true regardless of whether or not XI was, in fact, hardcore.

here are just some of the features that made the game hardcore:

• Not for solo players.
• Hard to level.
• High learning curve.
• Ton of camping.
• Huge time investment needed.
• economy based on supply and demand which was then based on time invested into drop rates.

If you view those features as annoying and not "fun" then the games just not for you plain and simple. It dose not make it any less of a hardcore game just because you don't like those features.

And to the irony of your post you were combating popular belief with the most popular discredited definition site lol.

[Konachibi]

here are just some of the features that made the game hardcore:

• Not for solo players.
• Hard to level.
• High learning curve.
• Ton of camping.
• Huge time investment needed.
• economy based on supply and demand which was then based on time invested into drop rates.

If you view those features as annoying and not "fun" then the games just not for you plain and simple. It dose not make it any less of a hardcore game just because you don't like those features.

And to the irony of your post you were combating popular belief with the most popular discredited definition site lol.

I can agree with those first three points but.... ton of camping?

So like, a game is hardcore if you spend ages sitting around waiting for something to happen? That's like saying being in a queue for a theme park ride is hardcore.

Huge time investment needed, that's all decided by the player. An MMO doesn't NEED a lot of time wasted on it to offer rewards, it all depends on the player and their play-style. A person can hit max level and do end-game content without having to give up their day job to do it.

And the supply & demand thing isn't actually a good thing. Relying on item drop rates to be able to purchase equipment is what caused R.M.T to come into existance, and R.M.T allows players to 'buy their win'.

[Bled]

I can agree with those first three points but.... ton of camping?

So like, a game is hardcore if you spend ages sitting around waiting for something to happen? That's like saying being in a queue for a theme park ride is hardcore.

Huge time investment needed, that's all decided by the player. An MMO doesn't NEED a lot of time wasted on it to offer rewards, it all depends on the player and their play-style. A person can hit max level and do end-game content without having to give up their day job to do it.

And the supply & demand thing isn't actually a good thing. Relying on item drop rates to be able to purchase equipment is what caused R.M.T to come into existance, and R.M.T allows players to 'buy their win'.

Camping is preparing, the points between battle that include strategizing for the next battle... anything can sound bad if you define it incorrectly.

If you really want to use a theme park as an example then here you go:

Top Hill Dragster, longest wait for a roller coaster - Hardcore roller coaster enthusiasts, more complex, viewed as more of a thrill

Gemini, extremely short wait for ride - casual roller coaster, not as complex, a moderate thrill.

Like i said earlier i can play Hello Kitty Island Adventure hardcore, but the game its self is not hardcore.

Supply and demand is essential to any economy... RMT's are the problem not supply and demand..

[Pandastirfry]

Camping is preparing, the points between battle that include stigmatizing for the next battle... anything can sound bad if you define it incorrectly.

If you really want to use a theme park as an example then here you go:

Top Hill Dragster, longest wait for a roller coaster - Hardcore roller coaster enthusiasts, more complex, viewed as more of a thrill

Gemini, extremely short wait for ride - casual roller coaster, not as complex, a moderate thrill.

Like i said earlier i can play Hello Kitty Island Adventure hardcore, but the game its self is not hardcore.

Supply and demand is essential to any economy... RMT's are the problem not supply and demand..

Your examples are terrible, a casual roller coaster rider may decide that they want to ride the big boy coaster too, and a hard core would go on both.

here's the deal, a thing is not hard core, a person is hard core.

If you play hello kitty hard core...guess what you're a hard core Hello kitty player (wow that would be something to be proud of)

if you play FFXIV hard core, Huzzah you're a hard core FFXIV player.

if you play FFXI hard core.....okay by now you get my drift.
So there you go there's your time investment that is one of your criteria for hard core games...

Lots of camping and preparation, well if you're a Hard core hello kitty player, you're going to prep for litter box cleaner corner or whatever goes on there...

High learning curve, usually hard cores make game mechanics out to be way more complex than they actually are, so I'm leaving this one alone.

hard to level: Hard Core hello kitty players get max level in a week bro, wanna try to do it in 3 days!, something tells me a hello kitty game would be hard to level in...mostly because it's hello kitty

and economy based on supply and demand...every mmo has this, even Team Fortress 2. and as to RMT...buddy that is supply and demand in it's purest form for an MMO.
There you go, by your criteria Hello Kitty Adventure Island is a hard core game!

[Bled]

Your examples are terrible, a casual roller coaster rider may decide that they want to ride the big boy coaster too, and a hard core would go on both.

here's the deal, a thing is not hard core, a person is hard core.

If you play hello kitty hard core...guess what you're a hard core Hello kitty player (wow that would be something to be proud of)

if you play FFXIV hard core, Huzzah you're a hard core FFXIV player.

if you play FFXI hard core.....okay by now you get my drift.
So there you go there's your time investment that is one of your criteria for hard core games...

Lots of camping and preparation, well if you're a Hard core hello kitty player, you're going to prep for litter box cleaner corner or whatever goes on there...

High learning curve, usually hard cores make game mechanics out to be way more complex than they actually are, so I'm leaving this one alone.

hard to level: Hard Core hello kitty players get max level in a week bro, wanna try to do it in 3 days!, something tells me a hello kitty game would be hard to level in...mostly because it's hello kitty

and economy based on supply and demand...every mmo has this, even Team Fortress 2. and as to RMT...buddy that is supply and demand in it's purest form for an MMO.
There you go, by your criteria Hello Kitty Adventure Island is a hard core game!

lol a casual player can play a hardcore game... i never said otherwise. my point went right over your head. and my roller coaster analogy applies perfectly if you want a hard core experience as a casual roller coaster rider you can get in line for the top hill dragster that dose not change the fact the the roller coaster is hardcore...

if all games followed your logic then we would live in a world with no criteria by which judge, base, or make a game. SE could give us a blank piece of paper and say welp you make the game what you want it to be so there you go, you make your own fun. I all ready stated you can be a hardcore player and play casual games and visa versa but games can be labeled as hard core and casual too.

no every MMO has varying degree of supply and demand, but im sure you don't understand value. RMT's need to be stopped not the economy... you are at this point arguing to argue and its getting down right bad.

[AmyRae]

here's the deal, a thing is not hard core, a person is hard core.

Mmm. No.

You could design a game with an exclusively hardcore play style in mind. That would make the game hardcore.

FFXI was very much a hardcore game in its beginning, and any review of the game or its expansions reflected the enormous time commitment required to make substantial progress.

In my opinion, hardcore versus casual play is directly proportional to time commitment, whether that means logging many hours to make progress, or worse, being made to work on the game's schedule as well (such as HNM windows, waiting 15 minutes to complete an airship ride, waiting till the right moon phase for HQ attempts, etc.). If the game is designed to take up your time with an egregious amount of repetitive tasks or senseless idling and preventing you from doing even routine leveling solo or in a small group, it's a hardcore game, no question. It's very difficult to play a game like that casually because you'll find it difficult to make any progress (maybe even making no progress at all) in a short amount of play time.

So, yes, it's possible for a game to be hardcore.

[Viridiana]

here are just some of the features that made the game hardcore:

• Not for solo players.
• Hard to level.
• High learning curve.
• Ton of camping.
• Huge time investment needed.
• economy based on supply and demand which was then based on time invested into drop rates.

If you view those features as annoying and not "fun" then the games just not for you plain and simple. It dose not make it any less of a hardcore game just because you don't like those features.

And to the irony of your post you were combating popular belief with the most popular discredited definition site lol.

Ah, see, now we're getting somewhere!

Now, I'd personally disagree that the camping or the economy qualify as hardcore, but that's mostly because I don't consider waiting to be hardcore. The time investment thing, I could go either way. I personally always thought of hardcore as requiring skill more than time, but time investment is, at the very least, a major connotation, so whatever. As to the rest, I've really nothing to say about them, having never actually played XI.

And about the irony. . . well, touché, but let's see you define a word without an appeal to the majority or appeal to authority.

[Invalice_Vangaurd]

here are just some of the features that made the game hardcore:

• Not for solo players.
• Hard to level.
• High learning curve.
• Ton of camping.
• Huge time investment needed.
• economy based on supply and demand which was then based on time invested into drop rates.

If you view those features as annoying and not "fun" then the games just not for you plain and simple. It dose not make it any less of a hardcore game just because you don't like those features.

And to the irony of your post you were combating popular belief with the most popular discredited definition site lol.

Sometimes it seems the only thing that makes for a 'hardcore player' is having no real-world responsibilities, which grants them large amounts of free-time, so they excel at time consuming games since they are able to spend all day logged on, and thus, feel superior to the rest of us 'casuals' such as myself who work full-time, go to school full-time, serve in the military, and devote time to friends and other hobbies. My apologies for thinking a 'hardcore game' should consist of activities that make you think, plan, and react, instead of merely filled with time consuming chores.

Not For Solo Players

Please tell me, how does being in a party make a game hardcore? You wanna know what the most hardcore part of my leveling was in XI-- it was soloing EM-VT mobs with PLD or THF while I waited for a party-- having optimized gear swaps for WS and buffs, utilizing status bolts, having the best subjobs for any given situation, always making sure shield/evade/parry were capped or as close to cap as possible, having good spell timing to keep buffs or shadows up, always having juice for refresh and potions for oh-shit situations, etc, etc. In comparison to being in a party, soloing felt much more 'hardcore' and skill oriented. And although I kept the same mentality when I was in parties, it wasn't nearly as necessary or rewarding-- except for maybe when DDs freaked out because the tank was doing more WS damage than they were. More often than not, at least some of the people in my party were pretty damn bad at the game, and we still usually got by just fine because other people made up for their lack of skill.

My point being, partying vs soloability has nothing to do with how difficult a game is. If you like to party that's great, but some of us would rather not, and it's ridiculous to think partying makes you more 'hardcore.' There should be options for people who want to party as well as solo, and both options should grant higher rewards based on how skillful the player is, instead of how much free-time they have.

Sitting around camping

Is not a sign of a hardcore game, but merely a time sink that those who have an abundance of free-time, or those who use bots, can benefit from.

Something to note here: time-consuming games will ALWAYS cause higher levels of bot usage. Just something to remember for all the people who complain about aspects of the game not taking long enough and then also complain about bots.

Huge Time Investment

See above.

Hard to level

This depends on how you define 'hard'-- as in skill oriented battle mechanics and exp acquisition methods vs. a simpler but very time consuming leveling model. Once again, I'm not sure how your abundance of free-time makes you more hardcore than me.

High Learning Curve

Like I said above, there were a lot of bad players during my time in XI, and parties still ran fine as long as better players picked up the slack. Regardless, even WoW has a more complex battle system than XI does, which makes it more difficult to master, and I'm guessing most of you 'hardcores' consider WoW a game for us casuals. When I say this, I'm speaking about high levels of performance. It is much easier to perform at your maximum potential in XI than it is in WoW.

My point being, if XI has a high learning curve, than what exactly would you consider a shallow learning curve? Why don't you explain in detail the complexities of XI, and I'll gladly explain to you how several other games, which you probably consider 'easy-mode' are more complex and harder to master, but simply less time consuming.

Economy Based on Drops

I had more gil in XI than I knew what to do with, and almost none of it was made off of rare drops. Most of it was made through either crafting HQs of high demand equipment or crafting consumables in bulk, and HQing was not based on time involvement, but knowing how the system worked, so you could meet HQ tier requirements, craft at the appropriate times, etc. I also had linkshell mates who were rich due to dysnthing, farming, or gathering common items, and sometimes crafting them into higher components, which didn't take much effort at all, but merely required knowledge about what sold well and what didn't.

In reality, the economy was based on gil farmers and gil sellers, that's REALLY what the economy was based on. Either way, I don't see how the broken economy of XI has anything to do with the game being hardcore. Once again, there are other games, which you probably consider casual, that have economies more complex and fluid than XI.

In short, I think your argument boils down to: I have lots of free time and casuals don't, therefore, I'm more hardcore than they are. I think hardcore is one of those words like spirituality, where people really have no clue what they're talking about when they use it.