Hardcore is not a dirty word

[Pandastirfry]

Mmm. No.

You could design a game with an exclusively hardcore play style in mind. That would make the game hardcore.

FFXI was very much a hardcore in its beginning, and any review of the game or its expansions reflected the enormous time commitment required to make substantial progress.

In my opinion, hardcore versus casual play is directly proportional to time commitment, whether that means logging many hours to make progress, or worse, being made to work on the game's schedule as well (such as HNM windows, waiting 15 minutes to complete an airship ride, waiting till the right moon phase for HQ attempts, etc.). If the game is designed to take up your time with an egregious amount of repetitive tasks or senseless idling and preventing you from doing even routine leveling solo or in a small group, it's a hardcore game, no question. It's very difficult to play a game like that casually because you'll find it difficult to make any progress (maybe even making no progress at all) in a short amount of play time.

So, yes, it's possible for a game to be hardcore.

And I would say that from a design stand point everything you mentioned is not "hard core" but poor design. Basically, I can spend several hours in game just playing around in Ul'dah making my LS mates laugh by dancing in my skivvies. I did this the other night for 7 hours, is that "hard core" I put in a lot of time and effort making my friends laugh and it was rewarding too, It took me 3 hours to rank my lancer from 6 to 15, grinding the crap out of dodo's solo, I guess that was just casual. Time spent doing something does not make something hard core...it is just time you will never get back that you could have been doing something actually fun.

[Madruk]

And I would say that from a design stand point everything you mentioned is not "hard core" but poor design. Basically, I can spend several hours in game just playing around in Ul'dah making my LS mates laugh by dancing in my skivvies. I did this the other night for 7 hours, is that "hard core" I put in a lot of time and effort making my friends laugh and it was rewarding too, It took me 3 hours to rank my lancer from 6 to 15, grinding the crap out of dodo's solo, I guess that was just casual. Time spent doing something does not make something hard core...it is just time you will never get back that you could have been doing something actually fun.

Different strokes, different folks. Most equate hardcore as accomplishing something within the game as far as progression, not dancing naked. However you could in theory say you danced hardcore. Just not that you are a hardcore dancer. This is acceptable.

[Pandastirfry]

Different strokes, different folks. Most equate hardcore as accomplishing something within the game as far as progression, not dancing naked. However you could in theory say you danced hardcore. Just not that you are a hardcore dancer. This is acceptable.

and that would be my point all along. Hard core is a state of mind, not a tangible, empirical thing!

[AmyRae]

And I would say that from a design stand point everything you mentioned is not "hard core" but poor design. Basically, I can spend several hours in game just playing around in Ul'dah making my LS mates laugh by dancing in my skivvies. I did this the other night for 7 hours, is that "hard core" I put in a lot of time and effort making my friends laugh and it was rewarding too, It took me 3 hours to rank my lancer from 6 to 15, grinding the crap out of dodo's solo, I guess that was just casual. Time spent doing something does not make something hard core...it is just time you will never get back that you could have been doing something actually fun.

Hardcore might mean different things in different situations, but we're talking about video games, and in particular MMOs. The term "hardcore" in video games may refer to complexity, but MMOs aren't particularly complex. Therefore, the greatest distinction you can make is time commitment since that's the main deciding factor between the "good" players and the "bad."

Hardcore players want valuable things that take a lot of time to complete as a means to separate and distinguish themselves from those who don't play as much (but also so they don't get bored, having breezed through all the content there is to offer).

Casual players want to make progress with limited log in times in mind. Guildleves were designed for casual players. There's only a limited amount you can get in a 36 hour period, they offer greater rewards than you'd get from grinding in the same amount of time, and in case of battle and field leves they make it easy to locate your objectives.

Hardcore players can breeze through guildleves too, but they can spend the rest of the time grinding if they want to make more progress before the next 36 hour window arrives.

[Aenarion]

The term "hardcore" in video games may refer to complexity, but MMOs aren't particularly complex.

maybe not the MMOs you've played, but i sure have played, and are still playing, one mmo that is quite complex.

[AmyRae]

maybe not the MMOs you've played, but i sure have played, and are still playing, one mmo that is quite complex.

Don't mistake the term complexity for difficulty. The rules to chess aren't complex at all. It doesn't mean you'll beat Kasparov on your first go. MMOs aren't very complex, either. It doesn't mean you can do everything with ease, but it's not rocket science. The concepts are simple enough most anyone can understand.

[Aenarion]

Don't mistake the term complexity for difficulty. The rules to chess aren't complex at all. It doesn't mean you'll beat Kasparov on your first go. MMOs aren't very complex, either. It doesn't mean you can do everything with ease, but it's not rocket science. The concepts are simple enough most anyone can understand.

wait, are you seriously categorically denying the existence of complex MMOs?

[Xello]

Generally, true complexity in an mmorpg is a symptom of poor design. Usually characteristic of over abundance of stat/menu screens, lengthy processes to accomplish relatively simple ends, this is a failing on a developers part.

MMORPG concepts are supposed to be easy to understand and pick up, but demanding to master. I think the game is in a pretty good space with this atm. XI is filling the niche that want to spend all day waiting for a party because a single tiny river crab will kick your ass if you attempt it alone. XIV is clearly supposed to be (and at its best as) a hybrid casual/hardcore mix. I'd hate to give up following the storys of the game, and leave a world I enjoy being a part of because my job or school prevented me jumping on for some casual based progress.

It's not an underhanded or cheap thing to try and appeal to a larger playerbase. It's in no way greedy or simply money grubbing, it's attempting to allow as many people as possible be a part of the world you've created.

People are playing for a lot of reasons, lore, roleplay, hardcores, casuals. They all want to be a part of Eorzea, it's not really fair to shift the nature of the entire world to better accommodate just a fraction of the playerbase.

I understand what you're wanting from the game, but you know as well as I that in time, SE will give you all the hard grindan, low drop rating, hardcore content you could want, Because the hardcore are a valued and essential part of the communities makeup, No reason to deny the other demographics their time and fun here.

[AmyRae]

wait, are you seriously categorically denying the existence of complex MMOs?

MMOs can have complexity, but they aren't complex to play. It's not like, say, a fighting game where there are a hundred different combos for your character that have to be performed with exact timing.

Fighting in FFXIV is not complex at all by comparison, especially if you divide up the activities into distinct roles. If you're a tank, wear lots of armor and try to get the mobs to fight you. If you're a healer, cast the cure spells on the wounded guy. What's so complex about that?

[Aenarion]

MMOs can have complexity, but they aren't complex to play. It's not like, say, a fighting game where there are a hundred different combos for your character that have to be performed with exact timing.

Fighting in FFXIV is not complex at all by comparison, especially if you divide up the activities into distinct roles. If you're a tank, wear lots of armor and try to get the mobs to fight you. If you're a healer, cast the cure spells on the wounded guy. What's so complex about that?

It's not, but then again I wasn't referring to FFXIV :P