Hardcore is not a dirty word

[Viridiana]

fail wiki link lol

this post is soaked in irony

Hmm? Just saying, everyone thinking something is hardcore doesn't automatically make it so.

Now, if you'd like to actually explain what was so hardcore about it, feel free; but saying "Everyone here believes FFXI was hardcore, so it is," is, well, a logical fallacy. That holds true regardless of whether or not XI was, in fact, hardcore.

[Bled]

Hmm? Just saying, everyone thinking something is hardcore doesn't automatically make it so.

Now, if you'd like to actually explain what was so hardcore about it, feel free; but saying "Everyone here believes FFXI was hardcore, so it is," is, well, a logical fallacy. That holds true regardless of whether or not XI was, in fact, hardcore.

here are just some of the features that made the game hardcore:

• Not for solo players.
• Hard to level.
• High learning curve.
• Ton of camping.
• Huge time investment needed.
• economy based on supply and demand which was then based on time invested into drop rates.

If you view those features as annoying and not "fun" then the games just not for you plain and simple. It dose not make it any less of a hardcore game just because you don't like those features.

And to the irony of your post you were combating popular belief with the most popular discredited definition site lol.

[Konachibi]

here are just some of the features that made the game hardcore:

• Not for solo players.
• Hard to level.
• High learning curve.
• Ton of camping.
• Huge time investment needed.
• economy based on supply and demand which was then based on time invested into drop rates.

If you view those features as annoying and not "fun" then the games just not for you plain and simple. It dose not make it any less of a hardcore game just because you don't like those features.

And to the irony of your post you were combating popular belief with the most popular discredited definition site lol.

I can agree with those first three points but.... ton of camping?

So like, a game is hardcore if you spend ages sitting around waiting for something to happen? That's like saying being in a queue for a theme park ride is hardcore.

Huge time investment needed, that's all decided by the player. An MMO doesn't NEED a lot of time wasted on it to offer rewards, it all depends on the player and their play-style. A person can hit max level and do end-game content without having to give up their day job to do it.

And the supply & demand thing isn't actually a good thing. Relying on item drop rates to be able to purchase equipment is what caused R.M.T to come into existance, and R.M.T allows players to 'buy their win'.

[Bled]

I can agree with those first three points but.... ton of camping?

So like, a game is hardcore if you spend ages sitting around waiting for something to happen? That's like saying being in a queue for a theme park ride is hardcore.

Huge time investment needed, that's all decided by the player. An MMO doesn't NEED a lot of time wasted on it to offer rewards, it all depends on the player and their play-style. A person can hit max level and do end-game content without having to give up their day job to do it.

And the supply & demand thing isn't actually a good thing. Relying on item drop rates to be able to purchase equipment is what caused R.M.T to come into existance, and R.M.T allows players to 'buy their win'.

Camping is preparing, the points between battle that include strategizing for the next battle... anything can sound bad if you define it incorrectly.

If you really want to use a theme park as an example then here you go:

Top Hill Dragster, longest wait for a roller coaster - Hardcore roller coaster enthusiasts, more complex, viewed as more of a thrill

Gemini, extremely short wait for ride - casual roller coaster, not as complex, a moderate thrill.

Like i said earlier i can play Hello Kitty Island Adventure hardcore, but the game its self is not hardcore.

Supply and demand is essential to any economy... RMT's are the problem not supply and demand..

[Pandastirfry]

Camping is preparing, the points between battle that include stigmatizing for the next battle... anything can sound bad if you define it incorrectly.

If you really want to use a theme park as an example then here you go:

Top Hill Dragster, longest wait for a roller coaster - Hardcore roller coaster enthusiasts, more complex, viewed as more of a thrill

Gemini, extremely short wait for ride - casual roller coaster, not as complex, a moderate thrill.

Like i said earlier i can play Hello Kitty Island Adventure hardcore, but the game its self is not hardcore.

Supply and demand is essential to any economy... RMT's are the problem not supply and demand..

Your examples are terrible, a casual roller coaster rider may decide that they want to ride the big boy coaster too, and a hard core would go on both.

here's the deal, a thing is not hard core, a person is hard core.

If you play hello kitty hard core...guess what you're a hard core Hello kitty player (wow that would be something to be proud of)

if you play FFXIV hard core, Huzzah you're a hard core FFXIV player.

if you play FFXI hard core.....okay by now you get my drift.
So there you go there's your time investment that is one of your criteria for hard core games...

Lots of camping and preparation, well if you're a Hard core hello kitty player, you're going to prep for litter box cleaner corner or whatever goes on there...

High learning curve, usually hard cores make game mechanics out to be way more complex than they actually are, so I'm leaving this one alone.

hard to level: Hard Core hello kitty players get max level in a week bro, wanna try to do it in 3 days!, something tells me a hello kitty game would be hard to level in...mostly because it's hello kitty

and economy based on supply and demand...every mmo has this, even Team Fortress 2. and as to RMT...buddy that is supply and demand in it's purest form for an MMO.
There you go, by your criteria Hello Kitty Adventure Island is a hard core game!

[Bled]

Your examples are terrible, a casual roller coaster rider may decide that they want to ride the big boy coaster too, and a hard core would go on both.

here's the deal, a thing is not hard core, a person is hard core.

If you play hello kitty hard core...guess what you're a hard core Hello kitty player (wow that would be something to be proud of)

if you play FFXIV hard core, Huzzah you're a hard core FFXIV player.

if you play FFXI hard core.....okay by now you get my drift.
So there you go there's your time investment that is one of your criteria for hard core games...

Lots of camping and preparation, well if you're a Hard core hello kitty player, you're going to prep for litter box cleaner corner or whatever goes on there...

High learning curve, usually hard cores make game mechanics out to be way more complex than they actually are, so I'm leaving this one alone.

hard to level: Hard Core hello kitty players get max level in a week bro, wanna try to do it in 3 days!, something tells me a hello kitty game would be hard to level in...mostly because it's hello kitty

and economy based on supply and demand...every mmo has this, even Team Fortress 2. and as to RMT...buddy that is supply and demand in it's purest form for an MMO.
There you go, by your criteria Hello Kitty Adventure Island is a hard core game!

lol a casual player can play a hardcore game... i never said otherwise. my point went right over your head. and my roller coaster analogy applies perfectly if you want a hard core experience as a casual roller coaster rider you can get in line for the top hill dragster that dose not change the fact the the roller coaster is hardcore...

if all games followed your logic then we would live in a world with no criteria by which judge, base, or make a game. SE could give us a blank piece of paper and say welp you make the game what you want it to be so there you go, you make your own fun. I all ready stated you can be a hardcore player and play casual games and visa versa but games can be labeled as hard core and casual too.

no every MMO has varying degree of supply and demand, but im sure you don't understand value. RMT's need to be stopped not the economy... you are at this point arguing to argue and its getting down right bad.

[Pandastirfry]

lol a casual player can play a hardcore game... i never said otherwise. my point went right over your head. and my roller coaster analogy applies perfectly if you want a hard core experience as a casual roller coaster rider you can get in line for the top hill dragster that dose not change the fact the the roller coaster is hardcore...

if all games followed your logic then we would live in a world with no criteria by which judge, base, or make a game. SE could give us a blank piece of paper and say welp you make the game what you want it to be so there you go, you make your own fun. I all ready stated you can be a hardcore player and play casual games and visa versa but games can be labeled as hard core and casual too.

no every MMO has varying degree of supply and demand, but im sure you don't understand value. RMT's need to be stopped not the economy... you are at this point arguing to argue and its getting down right bad.

your point didn't go over my head...it went over yours.

I used your criteria...you know the ones you posted up thread, the ones you said made a hard core game. the problem is you criteria is so vague and can be applied to anything that you basically said yourself that every game is hard core if it meets the most arbitrary of criteria, Hell you even agreed that WoW was a hard core game.

I'm done with this, you don't even know what you're saying anymore.

[AmyRae]

here's the deal, a thing is not hard core, a person is hard core.

Mmm. No.

You could design a game with an exclusively hardcore play style in mind. That would make the game hardcore.

FFXI was very much a hardcore game in its beginning, and any review of the game or its expansions reflected the enormous time commitment required to make substantial progress.

In my opinion, hardcore versus casual play is directly proportional to time commitment, whether that means logging many hours to make progress, or worse, being made to work on the game's schedule as well (such as HNM windows, waiting 15 minutes to complete an airship ride, waiting till the right moon phase for HQ attempts, etc.). If the game is designed to take up your time with an egregious amount of repetitive tasks or senseless idling and preventing you from doing even routine leveling solo or in a small group, it's a hardcore game, no question. It's very difficult to play a game like that casually because you'll find it difficult to make any progress (maybe even making no progress at all) in a short amount of play time.

So, yes, it's possible for a game to be hardcore.

[Pandastirfry]

Mmm. No.

You could design a game with an exclusively hardcore play style in mind. That would make the game hardcore.

FFXI was very much a hardcore in its beginning, and any review of the game or its expansions reflected the enormous time commitment required to make substantial progress.

In my opinion, hardcore versus casual play is directly proportional to time commitment, whether that means logging many hours to make progress, or worse, being made to work on the game's schedule as well (such as HNM windows, waiting 15 minutes to complete an airship ride, waiting till the right moon phase for HQ attempts, etc.). If the game is designed to take up your time with an egregious amount of repetitive tasks or senseless idling and preventing you from doing even routine leveling solo or in a small group, it's a hardcore game, no question. It's very difficult to play a game like that casually because you'll find it difficult to make any progress (maybe even making no progress at all) in a short amount of play time.

So, yes, it's possible for a game to be hardcore.

And I would say that from a design stand point everything you mentioned is not "hard core" but poor design. Basically, I can spend several hours in game just playing around in Ul'dah making my LS mates laugh by dancing in my skivvies. I did this the other night for 7 hours, is that "hard core" I put in a lot of time and effort making my friends laugh and it was rewarding too, It took me 3 hours to rank my lancer from 6 to 15, grinding the crap out of dodo's solo, I guess that was just casual. Time spent doing something does not make something hard core...it is just time you will never get back that you could have been doing something actually fun.

[Viridiana]

here are just some of the features that made the game hardcore:

• Not for solo players.
• Hard to level.
• High learning curve.
• Ton of camping.
• Huge time investment needed.
• economy based on supply and demand which was then based on time invested into drop rates.

If you view those features as annoying and not "fun" then the games just not for you plain and simple. It dose not make it any less of a hardcore game just because you don't like those features.

And to the irony of your post you were combating popular belief with the most popular discredited definition site lol.

Ah, see, now we're getting somewhere!

Now, I'd personally disagree that the camping or the economy qualify as hardcore, but that's mostly because I don't consider waiting to be hardcore. The time investment thing, I could go either way. I personally always thought of hardcore as requiring skill more than time, but time investment is, at the very least, a major connotation, so whatever. As to the rest, I've really nothing to say about them, having never actually played XI.

And about the irony. . . well, touché, but let's see you define a word without an appeal to the majority or appeal to authority.