Hardcore is not a dirty word

[Bled]

I played FFXI from NA release and quit just after WotG...it wasn't hardcore, it was grindtastic, it was moderately successful and when WoW came out my server's pop went from 5,000~ avg at NA prime time to less than 2000~ avg at NA prime time and never rebounded by the time I quit

FFXI was the outlier...and I'm saying this as someone who enjoyed the game*


*well to be honest I liked goofing around with my LS mates the game itself was boring as sin.

I'm not understanding peoples confusion with the definition of a hardcore game.. a casual game is typically distinguished by their simple rules and lack of commitment required so in contrast a hardcore game would be the opposite. FF11 was not a casual game! why is that so hard to understand grind tastic or not it was still labeled as hardcore.

You can play any game casually or hardcore, I can play Hello Kitty Island Adventure hardcore yet the game would still be a casual game. What I'm talking about is the design and development of the game being hardcore and casual.

[Konachibi]

I'm not understanding peoples confusion with the definition of a hardcore game.. a casual game is typically distinguished by their simple rules and lack of commitment required so in contrast a hardcore game would be the opposite. FF11 was not a casual game! why is that so hard to understand grind tastic or not it was still labeled as hardcore.

You can play any game casually or hardcore, I can play Hello Kitty Island Adventure hardcore yet the game would still be a casual game. What I'm talking about is the design and development of the game being hardcore and casual.

So what you're after in FFXIV is a game that's very time consuming, difficult to learn initially and with a constantly upward-flowing learning curve?

[Bled]

So what you're after in FFXIV is a game that's very time consuming, difficult to learn initially and with a constantly upward-flowing learning curve?

What I'm after in FFXIV is a hardcore experience which involves time invested into the game to achieve monumental goals, which dose not hold your hand/point everything out to you with big arrows, and a steep learning curve that allows for competitiveness.

[Konachibi]

What I'm after in FFXIV is a hardcore experience which involves time invested into the game to achieve monumental goals, which dose not hold your hand/point everything out to you with big arrows, and a steep learning curve that allows for competitiveness.

Take up crafting.

Problem solved (b'.')b

[Gramul]

Like I said, it wasn't hardcore, sure it sucked the life from your bones and gave an illusion of depth, but in reality it was a tank and spank grind fest with time sinks in masquerading as content.

Yeah. Hardcore.
What's not to get?

Hardcore essentially just means more commitment required. That usually means time invested into learning increasingly complex game mechanics and having the patience to work with a leveling system. As long as a game is short, and or quick to play, it's casual friendly.

Skill required isn't necessarily related, as it's more of a byproduct of the time invested.

Honestly, I think there's room in this game for both core and casual content. However, casuals shouldn't get upset by something that takes a lot of time to do for a big reward and cores shouldn't complain that the game is too "easy".

[Pandastirfry]

Yeah. Hardcore.
What's not to get?

Hardcore essentially just means more commitment required. That usually means time invested into learning increasingly complex game mechanics and having the patience to work with a leveling system. As long as a game is short, and or quick to play, it's casual friendly.

Skill required isn't necessarily related, as it's more of a byproduct of the time invested.

Honestly, I think there's room in this game for both core and casual content. However, casuals shouldn't get upset by something that takes a lot of time to do for a big reward and cores shouldn't complain that the game is too "easy".

The point I'm trying to make here, is that FFXI didn't have complex game mechanics. What it had was bog-standard gameplay for a late '90's early '00's MMO, it was really no different from Ultima or Everquest, it was just set in Final Fantasy Millieu and had time sinks out the wazoo. most of the "FFXI was hardcore, FFXI was better...blah blah blah" is fueled largely by nostalgia, not anything actually concrete.

Time invested can be a component of a "hardcore" game, but in the case of XI, you put in a lot of work for very little reward. Drop rates were ridiculous (0 of 200 for the Monster Signa...wooo HARDCORE!!) and you spent so much time waiting, no not playing, literally sitting on your butt in Jeuno waiting for something...anything to happen.

and really I'm not complaining about something taking a lot of work or time to get done (ask me how many times I've killed Arthas in WoW...if you guessed 0 you'd be right) what I'm taking exception to is this rose colored glasses look to the sins of XI, there was no big reward at the end of those tunnels...it usually was an oncoming train of further grind

[Konachibi]

I spent most of my time on FFXI running around killing orcs using a battle mechanics first introduced in..... Final Fantasy 1. Not hard to learn a system that had already been going for almost 20 years.

That is, of what little time I spent playing it.

When I did join an LS during that small amount of time though most conversations went:
"Hey do you guys wanna go to [insert place] and do [insert activity]?"
which was then followed by:
"Ah no, we've done that so many times it's boring."

If that's hardcore then I'd rather be considered casual, even if I play the game for 5-10 hours a day.

[Bled]

The point I'm trying to make here, is that FFXI didn't have complex game mechanics. What it had was bog-standard gameplay for a late '90's early '00's MMO, it was really no different from Ultima or Everquest, it was just set in Final Fantasy Millieu and had time sinks out the wazoo. most of the "FFXI was hardcore, FFXI was better...blah blah blah" is fueled largely by nostalgia, not anything actually concrete.

Time invested can be a component of a "hardcore" game, but in the case of XI, you put in a lot of work for very little reward. Drop rates were ridiculous (0 of 200 for the Monster Signa...wooo HARDCORE!!) and you spent so much time waiting, no not playing, literally sitting on your butt in Jeuno waiting for something...anything to happen.

and really I'm not complaining about something taking a lot of work or time to get done (ask me how many times I've killed Arthas in WoW...if you guessed 0 you'd be right) what I'm taking exception to is this rose colored glasses look to the sins of XI, there was no big reward at the end of those tunnels...it usually was an oncoming train of further grind

"really I'm not complaining about something taking a lot of work or time to get done", that's exactly what you are arguing... you sound as though you played FF11 if your convictions you are portraying are true then you must be a masochist.

[Gramul]

The point I'm trying to make here, is that FFXI didn't have complex game mechanics. What it had was bog-standard gameplay for a late '90's early '00's MMO, it was really no different from Ultima or Everquest, it was just set in Final Fantasy Millieu and had time sinks out the wazoo.

Madam. Are you implying Ultima didn't have complex game mechanics?

[quantumsaint]

The point I'm trying to make here, is that FFXI didn't have complex game mechanics. What it had was bog-standard gameplay for a late '90's early '00's MMO, it was really no different from Ultima or Everquest, it was just set in Final Fantasy Millieu and had time sinks out the wazoo. most of the "FFXI was hardcore, FFXI was better...blah blah blah" is fueled largely by nostalgia, not anything actually concrete.

Time invested can be a component of a "hardcore" game, but in the case of XI, you put in a lot of work for very little reward. Drop rates were ridiculous (0 of 200 for the Monster Signa...wooo HARDCORE!!) and you spent so much time waiting, no not playing, literally sitting on your butt in Jeuno waiting for something...anything to happen.

and really I'm not complaining about something taking a lot of work or time to get done (ask me how many times I've killed Arthas in WoW...if you guessed 0 you'd be right) what I'm taking exception to is this rose colored glasses look to the sins of XI, there was no big reward at the end of those tunnels...it usually was an oncoming train of further grind

1/1 on Monster Signa. Then I killed him again years later a couple times when he was no longer camped and got it again on the 4th or 5th kill. The thing about algorithms is that they are unchanging. You can flip a coin and a have a 50% chance of it coming up heads or tails, but when it lands on tails you don't have a better chance of it being heads on the next flip, the percentage remains the same. I'm sorry for your luck.