Quote Originally Posted by Altena View Post
The advanced job turns CNJ into a strong healer, but does not gimp to any extensive level, WHM's ability to be a DD. In fact it has been said & proven in this thread by many people (a topic that I didn't get involved in because it was a derail) that WHM is actually a more effective solo nuker then CNJ with the addition to Regen.
I've agreed several times that this is a problem. I even suggested a slight fix, but I don't disagree that there is a problem with WHM. Where we disagree is that you want to "fix" two problems with one solution (i.e. take CNJ/WHM's elements and use them to strengthen THM/BLM), while I would prefer to leave CNJ's elements there and just weaken them as WHM, and give other things to BLM (i.e. dark-based and non-elemental spells).

No one uses the class system currently. If you still used CNJ in patch 1.23 to solo or nuke, then you are effectively gimping yourself.
No argument there, but there's a whole thread going on job/class identity, so I'll leave that alone.

I am not against changing the class system so that they become useful again at all, however I am against certain elements being tied up into a main healer job (ie WHM) which will indefinitely be gimped due to the fact they will not ever be able to be as strong as a main nuking class - otherwise that would cause an imbalance
Once again, you assume that CNJ will only ever produce healing jobs. I don't think that's the case. In time, I'm sure there will be a CNJ-derived job with DDing properties using their elements. That WHM can use them is just a side effect, but given the history of the FF series isn't an undesirable one. What needs to happen is just weakening them on WHM only.

At the moment - WHM is pretty broken, in comparison to other jobs.
You can spiritbond your unfinished relic solo in just a few hours, when other jobs spend a solid day on it.
That isn't broken? Ok, then it's a great solo class... It can also push some heavy nukes when the time calls for it (against wind/stone weak mobs), and main heal a full party of 8.
Being versatile doesn't necessarily make WHM a broken job, it merely points out that there's a lot of room to improve the others. Even aside, if you were to take WHM's DDing power and leave it for CNJ, I'm fine.

Remember we are talking about White Mage here, not Conjurer.
With the current job/class system--not that I agree with it--it's impossible to talk about White Mage without including Conjurer. Someone wasn't thinking clearly and decided that jobs should just be minor extensions of classes, rather than entirely new classes.

CNJ has always been semi-broken, and the nerf in the job patch removed some of that over-power. In the early days, CNJ could solo Dodore . . .
And that was hypothetically fixed in the class reform.

Two thing we can agree on I am sure is:
BLM is currently strong at doing ranged magic damage. (nothing else).
WHM (or CNJ) is currently fairly strong at solo'ing, exceptionally good at main healing, and reasonably solid nuking.
Yes, we can and have.

If you don't see an imbalance here then I don't know what else to tell you.
The fact is yes, you are indeed gimping one half of the elemental chain if you were to keep the utility based aero/stone/water on WHM.
You still seem to think WHM is the same as CNJ. I can't help you understand that CNJ is not a healing class and will not lead to exclusively healing jobs. If it does, there's a bigger problem than WHM-BLM imbalance.

These utility spells will never be as strong as a BLM nuke.
These spells are bound to half of the elemental chain.
This means that only half of the chain will be effective.
If they were to expand on CNJ or WHM's ability to nuke, that would push us back to an even more overpowered job then it currently is.
If they were to expand on WHM's ability to nuke, you're right. However, an extension of CNJ with weakened heals and higher buffs would only be equal to a correctly-functioning BLM.

Yes WHM/CNJ is overpowered. It should never have the same or even similar capability to BLM in regards to a nuking job.
Yet again, you confuse WHM with CNJ. CNJ can have the equal ability to nuke with a BLM as it is not a primarily-healing-based job and was the original elemental nuker. Not THM.
Yes it needs to have the ability to solo (hence the light based nuke suggestion).
Once again, forcing half the elemental chain on a job that should be a weaker nuker than BLM, will cause only half of the chain to be unbalanced and gimped. This effectively ruins the whole elemental chain.
Where do you get that CNJ should be a weaker nuker than BLM? But even still, fix the problem--that BLM's spells suck--and don't break a class that people actually like.