Removing elemental nukes from WHM

[Mychael]

Either way, you are still gimping 1 side of the wheel by giving the spells to a main healing class.

For the nine billionth time, >>>CONJURER<<< is not a "healing class."

>>>White mage<<< is a healing job, which happens to use Conjurer as its base class.

Conjurer is a basic job that can (and hopefully will) branch in other directions. You're asking SE to take those possibilities away.

What part of that is so hard to understand?

Lol I'm surprised of those so against the idea on this.

WHM cannot be main DD but yet WHM has DD spells - so SE has to keep the wheel down on EG content, as there is no way i'd be ok for the WHM DDing over the BLM and when you use the wheel that would happen (and it appears SE agrees since nothing EG is really weak to stone, or any element really).

WHM doesn't have DD spells. CNJ does. WHM gets them by extension. If this was the argument, I'd be okay with it:

- Remove non white magic spells from white mage, but leave it in CNJ (and give White mage white magic DD)

Or better yet, make the WHM soul stone have the opposite effect of Cleric Stance, i.e. WHMs will still have stone and aero, but they'll suck.

The underlying issue, though, is that people are dissatisfied with BLM. And there are a plethora of ways SE could overcome that, without taking ANYTHING from CNJ/WHM. But the real problem is, the OP didn't call this topic "How to make BLM a more balanced DD." It's "Removing elemental nukes from WHM"

[Shougun]

WHM doesn't have DD spells. CNJ does. WHM gets them by extension. If this was the argument, I'd be okay with it:


Or better yet, make the WHM soul stone have the opposite effect of Cleric Stance, i.e. WHMs will still have stone and aero, but they'll suck.

The underlying issue, though, is that people are dissatisfied with BLM. And there are a plethora of ways SE could overcome that, without taking ANYTHING from CNJ/WHM. But the real problem is, the OP didn't call this topic "How to make BLM a more balanced DD." It's "Removing elemental nukes from WHM"

Yeah you are right in that CNJ gets the DD spells but since there is no difference between CNJ DD and WHM DD it wouldnt matter. Although your next point solves exactly that issue :P so ok I agree then lol

Why is it a problem that CNJ/WHM can out damage a BLM on 3 mobs in the game then?
a GLD/PLD could out damage a BLM if mob isn't weak vs any of BLM spells; Even more so if it's resistant to all spells.

MNK, DRG etc arn't welcome in many parties, cause everyone wanna stack BLM, so it would be about time, there was a fight where BLM is left out

Yeah currently 3 mobs but further in my post I said that would be a big problem if those mobs include EG contents (where balance matters most). BLM can be left out if SE is trying to design content where each class is left out of something (I dont that is there intention though).

But WHM shouldnt be replacing BLM as DD, WHM is a healer with nice damage - and shouldnt considered EG as a healer and epic damage (stone weak bosses).

And that was all my point was. I dont care WHM can DD just so long as they dont become best at two things while all other classes are only best at one thing (which is bad balance in relation, imo).

Mychael has suggested another solution

[Alhanelem]

I believe in out of the box thinking but then can imagine a box around that new idea, and no matter allowing white mage to both be main DD and main healer is a bad idea for balance.

This is an opinion and not a fact. It isn't and doesn't have to be "bad for balance" for CNJ/WHM to have damaging spells. This doesn't mean that nuking is its primary role. You're not the out-of-the-box thinker you claim to be if you're so opposed to this.

Heals and damage are in fact rarely completely isolated from each other. Very few games these days give the "healer" nothing to attack with- it simply isn't commonly used in endgame content except in special situations. These spells are however necessary for solo and PvP balance- quite contrary to your statement of it being bad for balance.

WHM/CNJ having a handful of situationally beneficial damage spells does not mean that th ey aren't going to be healers more often than not, nor does it mean dethroning some other job as the best source of damage.

My 2 cents. As long as whm AND cnj have some way to get decent amount of exp by themselves and without a party.

At least someone understands the primary reason those spells and abilities exist.

[Shougun]

This is an opinion and not a fact. It isn't and doesn't have to be "bad for balance" for CNJ/WHM to have damaging spells. This doesn't mean that nuking is its primary role. You're not the out-of-the-box thinker you claim to be if you're so opposed to this.

Heals and damage are in fact rarely completely isolated from each other. Very few games these days give the "healer" nothing to attack with- it simply isn't commonly used in endgame content except in special situations. These spells are however necessary for solo and PvP balance- quite contrary to your statement of it being bad for balance.

WHM/CNJ having a handful of situationally beneficial damage spells does not mean that th ey aren't going to be healers more often than not, nor does it mean dethroning some other job as the best source of damage.

I said main DD. Meaning they are both main DD and main healer at the same time. In WoW Priest can be a great healer and they can be a great DD - but they are forced to choose by talents (they then become ok at the other thing).

I dont care if WHM can DD, but they cant be MAIN DD for simple balance reasons. Else you're just going to mass stack WHM's 1pld 7WHM lets do this.

No thats a bad idea.

[Altena]

For the nine billionth time, >>>CONJURER<<< is not a "healing class."

>>>White mage<<< is a healing job, which happens to use Conjurer as its base class.

Conjurer is a basic job that can (and hopefully will) branch in other directions. You're asking SE to take those possibilities away.

What part of that is so hard to understand?

I could say the same to you..

I have already stated that
a) Yes CNJ is a mage with nukes & heals. It is not a main healing class
b) CNJ it is a class
c) It does branch into another job that happens to be a main healer.

The advanced job turns CNJ into a strong healer, but does not gimp to any extensive level, WHM's ability to be a DD. In fact it has been said & proven in this thread by many people (a topic that I didn't get involved in because it was a derail) that WHM is actually a more effective solo nuker then CNJ with the addition to Regen.

No one uses the class system currently. If you still used CNJ in patch 1.23 to solo or nuke, then you are effectively gimping yourself.

I am not against changing the class system so that they become useful again at all, however I am against certain elements being tied up into a main healer job (ie WHM) which will indefinitely be gimped due to the fact they will not ever be able to be as strong as a main nuking class - otherwise that would cause an imbalance.

At the moment - WHM is pretty broken, in comparison to other jobs.
You can spiritbond your unfinished relic solo in just a few hours, when other jobs spend a solid day on it.
That isn't broken? Ok, then it's a great solo class... It can also push some heavy nukes when the time calls for it (against wind/stone weak mobs), and main heal a full party of 8.

Remember we are talking about White Mage here, not Conjurer.

CNJ has always been semi-broken, and the nerf in the job patch removed some of that over-power. In the early days, CNJ could solo Dodore . . .

Two thing we can agree on I am sure is:
BLM is currently strong at doing ranged magic damage. (nothing else).
WHM (or CNJ) is currently fairly strong at solo'ing, exceptionally good at main healing, and reasonably solid nuking.

If you don't see an imbalance here then I don't know what else to tell you.
The fact is yes, you are indeed gimping one half of the elemental chain if you were to keep the utility based aero/stone/water on WHM.

These utility spells will never be as strong as a BLM nuke.
These spells are bound to half of the elemental chain.
This means that only half of the chain will be effective.
If they were to expand on CNJ or WHM's ability to nuke, that would push us back to an even more overpowered job then it currently is.

Yes WHM/CNJ is overpowered. It should never have the same or even similar capability to BLM in regards to a nuking job.
Yes it needs to have the ability to solo (hence the light based nuke suggestion).
Once again, forcing half the elemental chain on a job that should be a weaker nuker than BLM, will cause only half of the chain to be unbalanced and gimped. This effectively ruins the whole elemental chain.

[Mychael]

The advanced job turns CNJ into a strong healer, but does not gimp to any extensive level, WHM's ability to be a DD. In fact it has been said & proven in this thread by many people (a topic that I didn't get involved in because it was a derail) that WHM is actually a more effective solo nuker then CNJ with the addition to Regen.

I've agreed several times that this is a problem. I even suggested a slight fix, but I don't disagree that there is a problem with WHM. Where we disagree is that you want to "fix" two problems with one solution (i.e. take CNJ/WHM's elements and use them to strengthen THM/BLM), while I would prefer to leave CNJ's elements there and just weaken them as WHM, and give other things to BLM (i.e. dark-based and non-elemental spells).

No one uses the class system currently. If you still used CNJ in patch 1.23 to solo or nuke, then you are effectively gimping yourself.

No argument there, but there's a whole thread going on job/class identity, so I'll leave that alone.

I am not against changing the class system so that they become useful again at all, however I am against certain elements being tied up into a main healer job (ie WHM) which will indefinitely be gimped due to the fact they will not ever be able to be as strong as a main nuking class - otherwise that would cause an imbalance

Once again, you assume that CNJ will only ever produce healing jobs. I don't think that's the case. In time, I'm sure there will be a CNJ-derived job with DDing properties using their elements. That WHM can use them is just a side effect, but given the history of the FF series isn't an undesirable one. What needs to happen is just weakening them on WHM only.

At the moment - WHM is pretty broken, in comparison to other jobs.
You can spiritbond your unfinished relic solo in just a few hours, when other jobs spend a solid day on it.
That isn't broken? Ok, then it's a great solo class... It can also push some heavy nukes when the time calls for it (against wind/stone weak mobs), and main heal a full party of 8.

Being versatile doesn't necessarily make WHM a broken job, it merely points out that there's a lot of room to improve the others. Even aside, if you were to take WHM's DDing power and leave it for CNJ, I'm fine.

Remember we are talking about White Mage here, not Conjurer.

With the current job/class system--not that I agree with it--it's impossible to talk about White Mage without including Conjurer. Someone wasn't thinking clearly and decided that jobs should just be minor extensions of classes, rather than entirely new classes.

CNJ has always been semi-broken, and the nerf in the job patch removed some of that over-power. In the early days, CNJ could solo Dodore . . .

And that was hypothetically fixed in the class reform.

Two thing we can agree on I am sure is:
BLM is currently strong at doing ranged magic damage. (nothing else).
WHM (or CNJ) is currently fairly strong at solo'ing, exceptionally good at main healing, and reasonably solid nuking.

Yes, we can and have.

If you don't see an imbalance here then I don't know what else to tell you.
The fact is yes, you are indeed gimping one half of the elemental chain if you were to keep the utility based aero/stone/water on WHM.

You still seem to think WHM is the same as CNJ. I can't help you understand that CNJ is not a healing class and will not lead to exclusively healing jobs. If it does, there's a bigger problem than WHM-BLM imbalance.

These utility spells will never be as strong as a BLM nuke.
These spells are bound to half of the elemental chain.
This means that only half of the chain will be effective.
If they were to expand on CNJ or WHM's ability to nuke, that would push us back to an even more overpowered job then it currently is.

If they were to expand on WHM's ability to nuke, you're right. However, an extension of CNJ with weakened heals and higher buffs would only be equal to a correctly-functioning BLM.

Yes WHM/CNJ is overpowered. It should never have the same or even similar capability to BLM in regards to a nuking job.

Yet again, you confuse WHM with CNJ. CNJ can have the equal ability to nuke with a BLM as it is not a primarily-healing-based job and was the original elemental nuker. Not THM.

Yes it needs to have the ability to solo (hence the light based nuke suggestion).
Once again, forcing half the elemental chain on a job that should be a weaker nuker than BLM, will cause only half of the chain to be unbalanced and gimped. This effectively ruins the whole elemental chain.

Where do you get that CNJ should be a weaker nuker than BLM? But even still, fix the problem--that BLM's spells suck--and don't break a class that people actually like.

[Altena]

stuff

I am at the point where, while we do agree on some counts, I will accept the fact that most of our disagreements won't change either way.

I then ask this question:

Would you (and your WHM/CNJ buddies) be happy with this solution as a compromise (I believe this has already been suggested a couple of times but I can't be bothered to go back and find some posts) -

Upon equipping a WHM soul gem, the elemental spells (aero/stone/water) would be removed from the WHM's spell list and replaced with Light elemental nukes.
Upon equipping a BLM soul gem, some more utility based abilities (including defensive, such as Sanguine Rite) would be removed but replaced with the other elements.

This would basically do a few things-
Change WHM to a healer / divine magic nuker, without affecting CNJ's spell set.
Give BLM all of the elements to take advantage of the elemental chain, but nerfing their survivability.
THM would not get access to the CNJ elements, but maintain the survivability.

We all seem to agree that the class system is pretty broken.. Let's just hope that it has been resolved.

I will leave on one final comment though - simply swapping Aero/Stone with divine spells would in no way "break a class people like" as it's practically a sideways trade. Instead of green puffs of air and a few rocks flying at the mob, you would see beams of light and what not.. The only difference would be there is far less mobs that are resistent to it (ie. higher magic accuracy), but less mobs that are weak to it.

The argument really should be
More consistent damage vs. resists & criticals?

I am actually surprised that a lot of people are so against light based nukes for WHM.. Perhaps they have a bad reputation that has been carried over from FFXI..

[Bowen]

Snip

Maybe, in the future, WHM and BLM can both gain Astral/Umbral spells when the number of abilities they can have will be more than five. If I remember correctly, the whole "15 Class skills, 5 'sub job' skills and 5 job skills" thing was only temporary. If that's the case, then I'd definitely be okay with WHM and BLM gaining Astral/Umbral spells.

But, locking WHM out of the elemental spells for their own class, and giving them to a different job for a different class?
No.

[Altena]

Maybe, in the future, WHM and BLM can both gain Astral/Umbral spells when the number of abilities they can have will be more than five. If I remember correctly, the whole "15 Class skills, 5 'sub job' skills and 5 job skills" thing was only temporary. If that's the case, then I'd definitely be okay with WHM and BLM gaining Astral/Umbral spells.

But, locking WHM out of the elemental spells for their own class, and giving them to a different job for a different class?
No.

The idea of jobs from the horse's mouth (SE being the horse) was that jobs were meant to be more specialised. That being, a class had more flexibility such as solo'ing, dd'ing, healing etc - whereas a Job was more designed for party play, as it lacked that flexibility.

CNJ > WHM - becomes more of a healer
MRD > WAR - becomes more of a tank (loses access to things like invigorate and keen flurry for DD)
LNC > DRG - heavier DD (loses access to better survivability)
ARC > BRD - more supportive (loses some DD capability but gains party buffs)
THM > BLM - heavier DD (with AM's, hate reduction, mp conservation (convert) but loses survivibility)

Currently CNJ>WHM loses practically nothing, but gains some very potent healing (ie main healer).



I am open to Umbral/Astral (or light/dark) in the future but that doesn't fix the imbalance in the elemental chain.

[Alhanelem]

The way they currently do classes will prevent themfrom branching into other jobs. Jobs only add 5 extra skills to these classes, and take none away.

There are going to be more job specific abilities. Also, you DO lose the ability to sub abilties from classes other than the 2 designated for your job.

Yet again, you confuse WHM with CNJ. CNJ can have the equal ability to nuke with a BLM as it is not a primarily-healing-based job and was the original elemental nuker. Not THM.

Stop saying this. You can't have it this way. WHM has everything that CNJ has, and that will never change. Cuire is a CNJ spell, as are the damage spells. WHM simply provides more abilities that (mostly) improve the class' support capability, plus one damaging spell that WHM has always had, and provides job specific equipment that also supports better healing ability.

"Jobs" in this game augment the classes in a particular way, usually nudging them towards a particular role- But you're still not locked into that role, and you can still do *almost* everything the class the job is based on could do.

Also, what the classes did at the beginning of FFXIV's history is irrelevant. The classes were largely redesigned and redefined since then.