Removing elemental nukes from WHM

[Altena]

This probably won't happen and I am probably beating a dead horse here but . . .

I seem to feel that WHM is taking up useful slots of the BLM skill tree, and the fact that we will probably never see WHM get any ancient magic (tornado, flood, quake), it is a real shame because all of those spells are extremely iconic to FF lore. Quake especially.

I feel as though WHM having these spells also remove the chance of ever seeing other light based nukes other then holy. (Such as Banish and Dia). I do feel as though WHM does need some damage based spells, however giving them elemental spells takes away from both the classic BLM and WHM lore.

This would not remove WHM's ability to nuke, as the light based spells can easily be given a fairly high amount of potency, and I am sure many people (not all) would be fine with removing some of BLM's abilities, in order to give them a wider spell range.

In saying that, I feel as though the whole spell system needs to have another serious look at. Spells should be decided on elemental weakness, not whether you are "killing 1 mob" (thunder) or you are "killing multiple mobs" (fire). Also let's face it, the ice spells suck donkey penis.

I would like to see the old mechanic return of Fire & Fira being single target, and Firaga being aoe (same goes with the other elements). You could do this across all 6 elements quite easily (with an animation rework of course). If you still wanted to give additional effects, you could do this within the element but I do believe that the reason to cast spells should be based on enemy weaknesses.

As for the compensation for WHM, Dia could become the current "Aero" spell line (bleed / DoT effect), and Banish could become the current "Stone" spell line.. (Just as an example).. Give them the same / similar potency and the WHM's in the community shouldn't have much to complain about. (I hope)..

I truly do hope that we see the classic FF elements return, instead of it becoming a bland "fire to aoe, thunder to single target", and never see anything else cast.

I am sure this topic has been raped to bits, and the fact it hasn't changed (based on a previous live letter showing WHM cast elemental spells) shows that it probably won't, but since everyone is waiting for beta, the issue should be raised again.

[Shougun]

Just to be an ass first:

Lol you want classic identies *looks at the classic Final Fantasy Bard and remembers how you said I was making no sense..*

As a matter of lore WHM in the past has had stone but also in the past BLM has had the whole elemental wheel (a few games BLM only has ice, fire, and lightning)- never the less I prefered to the BLM having the whole wheel. And I particularlly like your point that WHM will probably never get ancient magic for those elements and thus is a sad thing to see go.


(Also it makes the BLM not the magic nuker because if something weak to stone honestly WHM will do better- personally tested it lol).


I'd also love to see some more holy spells for WHM, dia, banish, and cure/raise being a nuke to undead


Perhaps they can make class abilities that dont go to the job like stone and aero do not go to WHM as an offensive spell but BLM picks them up. Then WHM picks up two new nukes extra to his normal 5+ (You could do this to other jobs too (replace X ability for Y) where it makes sense and this would make having classes have two jobs be easier as well since you could just take a few and replace the ones that you dont want like aero -> dia, stone -> banish kind of thing).

Edit: that last thing could work for jobs duo but its also messy, just wanted to add I realize its messy :P

[Asael]

I remember an old white magic spell called Zombie (iirc) which allowed healer to pretty much become a very effective single target damage dealer. Basically if Zombie landed on a mob it would gain an "undead" effect to which any healing spells cast on it could do pretty nasty damage. I miss these kind of spells, they were very creative and just made the job more interesting.

But yes, I would love to see a return of offensive type spells for WHM for that extra bit of versatility and survivability should the situation arise.

[Nash774]

Look at old old FF games. WHM has aero, stone, tornado, and quake.

[Alerith]

I'm going to disagree with removing these spells from WHM only because I've seen WHM Nukes salvage a run when BLMs have died or when the party is running fluidly enough for the WHM to add a little DPS.

[Shougun]

I'm going to disagree with removing these spells from WHM only because I've seen WHM Nukes salvage a run when BLMs have died or when the party is running fluidly enough for the WHM to add a little DPS.

To be fair they suggested to replace dps type A with dps type B- or Asael suggested to add Undead which would mean your healing spells turn into nukes (pretty cool mechanic). Difference between a and b just being looks and theme.


Now WHM is full on holy and BLM is kind of an offensive arcane master similar to the last few FF games.

[Jinrya-Geki]

Look at old old FF games. WHM has aero, stone, tornado, and quake.

That was just final fantasy 3.

Others Blue Mage had Aero, and Quake, and Stone.

[Alerith]

To be fair they suggested to replace dps type A with dps type B- or Asael suggested to add Undead which would mean your healing spells turn into nukes. (difference between a and b just being looks and theme)


Now WHM is full on holy and BLM is kind of an offensive arcane master similar to the last few FF games.

I would certainly be alright with that, as long as the actual damage output doesn't really change and it isn't limited to only being effective on undead.

In XI, there were very few instances in which Banish/II/III/-ga/II were ever worth casting. If they were to be given to WHM at the expense of Aero Stone and Water, I'd like them to be at least on par with those spells that it has lost. Obviously elemental properties wouldn't be applicable, but if you take away Aero and give Banish, then make it so that an unresisted Banish is equal in damage to an unresisted Aero.

Your trade is that Holy spells will do consistent damage across all elements with no elemental resistances or boosts being applicable. Elemental spells will still do decent damage, but shine even more when used against the appropriate element.

[NoloeTazier]

I think if Black Mage's nukes weren't so bad, we wouldn't be having these conversations. Like somehow we think giving Black Mage Stone, Aero, and Water nukes will fix the problem with the Spell system on a whole. But sadly it won't. I've warmed up to Aero/Stone being on Conjurer/White Mage I just wished they weren't so Enfeeble/Debuff oriented. Hard to have classes devoted to Enfeebling/Debuffing when every Job has them tied into side effects of Spells or Weaponskills.

I mean I'd be fine with giving Black Mage Stone/Aero/Water and White Mage having Banish/Scourge. Heck if Banish/Scourge did have the Debuff effect of Astral/Umbral down (like old Thaum had) then it would ACTUALLY help Black Mage with the Spell repetoire. But yeah, Spells all around are bad, atleast damaging spells are.

If Fire/Thunder/Blizzard lines for Black Mage were fixed, then I think we could all overlook Aero/Stone/Water on White Mage, even though we all mostly want White Mage focusing on healing. Even then I think the whole elemental wheel needs to be fixed period.

[Shougun]

I would certainly be alright with that, as long as the actual damage output doesn't really change and it isn't limited to only being effective on undead.

In XI, there were very few instances in which Banish/II/III/-ga/II were ever worth casting. If they were to be given to WHM at the expense of Aero Stone and Water, I'd like them to be at least on par with those spells that it has lost. Obviously elemental properties wouldn't be applicable, but if you take away Aero and give Banish, then make it so that an unresisted Banish is equal in damage to an unresisted Aero.

Your trade is that Holy spells will do consistent damage across all elements with no elemental resistances or boosts being applicable. Elemental spells will still do decent damage, but shine even more when used against the appropriate element.

I agree to that.


The Undead spell would be pretty cool imo, you could cast prism to get aoe Undead debuff, then cast Cura and have an aoe nuke. Cast raise and have an even more powerful nuke (although people may be pissed at you using on monsters lol).


Then of course WHM would just be great at ghosts and real undead - which I think would be best because if what I caught of WHM lore was right - it would make sense there too (banishing spirits and raising the dead - they are messing in Thals business lol).