Removing elemental nukes from WHM

[Orophin]

Seems like they're taking on an old school approach to magic. (no surprise considering all the FF3 references)

BLM traditionally only had access to Fire, Ice and Lightning, whereas later WHM got Aero. WHM needs the ability to solo, so that's why they have to have some damage dealing spells. I'd just really like to see BLM get some more variety in their spells. in FF4, Rydia had the three elements plus a lot of other spells, such as Bio, Quake and Flare. It'd be nice to see some of those spells come back.

[Reika]

Lastly, you are not getting the fact that Jobs aren't >Classes. Classes have their own uses and purposes. CNJ was not meant to be main healer...they can heal yes, but they can DD too. They are a hybrid, their damage and healing are balanced with their skillsets, but a CNJ will not outshine a THM or BLM on DD....even now. A THM with Wind or Earth equipment equipped can in fact, cast Stone and Aero for the same (if not occasionally better) Damage than CNJ. This is due to all the SKILLS THM gets like 'Enhanced Magic Potency' and 'Enhanced Magic Critical Potency' boosts. Not to mention timer skills like Excruciate and Dark Seal.

I don't think youve figured this out yet, but jobs are ADVANCED classes in this game. If you decide to play without the job soul equipped, solo or party, your gimped. One part of this broken system.

BLM vs WHM DD is even a greater disparity. Sure, once again WHM can cast the Stone>Aero line of spells. But if they want to DD effectively and at full power, they must 'Cleric Stance' and weaken their healing ability to do so. So once again...they are an excellent healer and modest DD...at best. But BLM with powers like 'convert' can do an amazing amount of DD. They typically out DD EVERYONE else in the party...and I most def. have never been in a party wherein the WHM out performed the BLM on damage....ever.

Do you have any qualms with BLM becoming and excellent DD and modest healer? I hope you dont. But, I'm pretty sure the answer will be "But... But.... the lore!!!".

Which brings me back to 'Why do you need these 4 spells again?' Because you are bored? Well BLM can be tweaked to include different abilities functions if that is the case, but it doesn't NEED these 4 spells to fix that....not only that, even if you had Aero and Stone, you still would never cast them...you'd cast Thunder 80% of the time. Although if you expect stone to retain it's debuff (which it wouldn't if CNJ/WHM was no longer it's caster) then you'd do Stone>Thunder until stone drops>stone>thunder until stone drops.

Black mage IS a park and bark caster. Once a mobs weakness is discovered, you just cast the most effective spell over and over and over until you are the mob are dead. This won't change even ifyou have 100's of spells, you will still cast the 'most effective' spells. This game's go to 'effective' spell is Thunder-chaining...getting extra spells won't correct that. You'd be better off asking for mobs that change their elemental weaknesses then asking to 'fix' blm by 'screwing' WHM

BLM needs access to all of them. If one would call WHM the Healing superiority of FFXIV, then BLM should be the elemental superiority of XIV. There was a time where CNJ had all the elemental spells and THM had Scourge and Banish, and no qualms came from me about that. If they had shifted ALL of the elemental spells from CNJ to THM as they took away Scourge, banish, and all heals and resurrect, while giving CNJ those with all the heals and best raising ability for use on their JOBS, it would have been totally fine.

[Kinseykinz]

I don't think youve figured this out yet, but jobs are ADVANCED classes in this game. If you decide to play without the job soul equipped, solo or party, your gimped. One part of this broken system.

No actually YOU don't get it. WHM isn't better Conjurer...it's different. White Mage serves a party role. I go out and solo/duo trio on my Conjurer all the time, because I don't NEED to be the 'healer specialist... But sure, for bosses, endgame PARTY play, I role WHM, and I'm an excellent one. But that doesn't prove your mis-guided point. Just because you WANT WHM to be 'advanced' Conjurer it doesn't make it so. By that logic, WHM is ALSO 'advanced Gladiator'.

Do you have any qualms with BLM becoming and excellent DD and modest healer? I hope you dont. But, I'm pretty sure the answer will be "But... But.... the lore!!!".

Black mage is already an excellent DD. It is the most widely used, highest spike damage DD in the game (as it should be), giving it healing abilities on top of that would make it over-powered (which THM was back in the day). The problem people are having left and right in this topic is they are confusing 'boring' with 'weak'. Just because people don't think that casting the same spells over and over is fun, does not make the job 'weak' or 'broken'. Again, if you want it to be more dynamic, fine. Then come up with ideas to make it so, but taking spells from one mage and adding them to another won't 'fix' the 'but we only use one spell tree problem'.

BLM needs access to all of them. If one would call WHM the Healing superiority of FFXIV, then BLM should be the elemental superiority of XIV. There was a time where CNJ had all the elemental spells and THM had Scourge and Banish, and no qualms came from me about that. If they had shifted ALL of the elemental spells from CNJ to THM as they took away Scourge, banish, and all heals and resurrect, while giving CNJ those with all the heals and best raising ability for use on their JOBS, it would have been totally fine.

Why does it need access to all elemental spells? Nothing in the lore, storyline etc makes blm the 'Elemental Superiority of XIV' it IS the 'Damage Mage' but Damage Mage doesn't mean 'Elemental' You are all making it that...not SE, not the lore.

Also, NO it would not have been fine. Conjurer IS a 'Druid' type of character... technically, they are the 'Elemental Mage' with a focus on nature and 'goodness' THM is NOT. THM however, is focused on destruction and the dark side of magic...which does lend towards the destructive 'nature' spells. So basically, by your logic, Conjurer should have unlocked BOTH black and White Mage. Once again, THM is the job that doesn't make sense....not CNJ.

Just because you FEEL like it should be something else, again, does not make it so. This all goes back to 'Conjurer is it's own stand alone class with it's own lore and feel...and to change this to what 'feels right' to you, they would have to completely rework, ALL the storylines and lore relating to Gridania, and the guilds within it...not to mention THM lore.

Lastly, they are reworking the Mages a little bit for ARR...not only that, I would bet money that while CNJ/WHM will keep the Stone/Aero spells they have now, Black Mage WILL gain access to Tornado, Quake and Flood as Ancient Magic when the time is right. (Level caps raised). As the Ancient Magics are being treated differently than the 'basic' elemental Magics.

[Reika]

No actually YOU don't get it. WHM isn't better Conjurer...it's different. White Mage serves a party role. I go out and solo/duo trio on my Conjurer all the time, because I don't NEED to be the 'healer specialist... But sure, for bosses, endgame PARTY play, I role WHM, and I'm an excellent one. But that doesn't prove your mis-guided point. Just because you WANT WHM to be 'advanced' Conjurer it doesn't make it so. By that logic, WHM is ALSO 'advanced Gladiator'.



Black mage is already an excellent DD. It is the most widely used, highest spike damage DD in the game (as it should be), giving it healing abilities on top of that would make it over-powered (which THM was back in the day). The problem people are having left and right in this topic is they are confusing 'boring' with 'weak'. Just because people don't think that casting the same spells over and over is fun, does not make the job 'weak' or 'broken'. Again, if you want it to be more dynamic, fine. Then come up with ideas to make it so, but taking spells from one mage and adding them to another won't 'fix' the 'but we only use one spell tree problem'.




Why does it need access to all elemental spells? Nothing in the lore, storyline etc makes blm the 'Elemental Superiority of XIV' it IS the 'Damage Mage' but Damage Mage doesn't mean 'Elemental' You are all making it that...not SE, not the lore.

Also, NO it would not have been fine. Conjurer IS a 'Druid' type of character... technically, they are the 'Elemental Mage' with a focus on nature and 'goodness' THM is NOT. THM however, is focused on destruction and the dark side of magic...which does lend towards the destructive 'nature' spells. So basically, by your logic, Conjurer should have unlocked BOTH black and White Mage. Once again, THM is the job that doesn't make sense....not CNJ.

Just because you FEEL like it should be something else, again, does not make it so. This all goes back to 'Conjurer is it's own stand alone class with it's own lore and feel...and to change this to what 'feels right' to you, they would have to completely rework, ALL the storylines and lore relating to Gridania, and the guilds within it...not to mention THM lore.

Lastly, they are reworking the Mages a little bit for ARR...not only that, I would bet money that while CNJ/WHM will keep the Stone/Aero spells they have now, Black Mage WILL gain access to Tornado, Quake and Flood as Ancient Magic when the time is right. (Level caps raised). As the Ancient Magics are being treated differently than the 'basic' elemental Magics.

No sorry, WHM is a better CNJ.... It can use every ability the CNJ has, and then some. Same with every other class->job in 1.0.....

[Kinseykinz]

No sorry, WHM is a better CNJ.... It can use every ability the CNJ has, and then some. Same with every other class->job in 1.0.....

Nope...wrong again.
Conjurer can equip conjurer spells PLUS spells from THM, and actions from roles like Gladiator, Pugilist and Archer....among others, creating a DDing mage that has some survivability and still some group heals. Sure, it doesn't DD like a Black Mage, but it can stand alone. However, it can only do this at the expense of being able to equip WHM abilities like Regen and having Benediction (among other restorative spells/skills)

White Mage is an excellent party healer. Regen alone makes it awesome. But it lacks the power (even with cleric's stance) to be an effective DD for very long. Not only that, most of it's dd spells, are typically cast to HELP the Black Mages and THM's do MORE damage. But White Mage gains these awesome group/individual heals and skills at the cost of DD flexibility. No longer can the slot skills from any class tree. No one invites a White Mage to a party for it's nuking potential...ever.

This is why one of my friends use to solo chocobo escort reasons as CNJ over WHM. He could complete the mission with decent scores by using his cross-class skills on CNJ he wouldn't have had access to on WHM. He did so well he earned that silly chocobo hat +all the company stuff he could buy WAY before people started spamming those missions and it was commonplace to see full groups out there.
But again, you can keep saying what you THINK should be true instead of what is ACTUALLY true.

[Reika]

Nope...wrong again.
Conjurer can equip conjurer spells PLUS spells from THM, and actions from roles like Gladiator, Pugilist and Archer....among others, creating a DDing mage that has some survivability and still some group heals. Sure, it doesn't DD like a Black Mage, but it can stand alone. However, it can only do this at the expense of being able to equip WHM abilities like Regen and having Benediction (among other restorative spells/skills)

White Mage is an excellent party healer. Regen alone makes it awesome. But it lacks the power (even with cleric's stance) to be an effective DD for very long. Not only that, most of it's dd spells, are typically cast to HELP the Black Mages and THM's do MORE damage. But White Mage gains these awesome group/individual heals and skills at the cost of DD flexibility. No longer can the slot skills from any class tree. No one invites a White Mage to a party for it's nuking potential...ever.

This is why one of my friends use to solo chocobo escort reasons as CNJ over WHM. He could complete the mission with decent scores by using his cross-class skills on CNJ he wouldn't have had access to on WHM. He did so well he earned that silly chocobo hat +all the company stuff he could buy WAY before people started spamming those missions and it was commonplace to see full groups out there.
But again, you can keep saying what you THINK should be true instead of what is ACTUALLY true.

That is still gimping yourself. you can have 5 low lvl skills more skills from this or that class, or you can have 5 better ways to keep yourself alive even solo. Regen > all solo. Saves you a lot of MP for hp recovery when your pretending to be a BLM...... in the end, the job skills are better than the low level class skills any day. WHM > CNJ.

[Orophin]

No actually YOU don't get it. WHM isn't better Conjurer...it's different.

No sorry, WHM is a better CNJ.... It can use every ability the CNJ has, and then some. Same with every other class->job in 1.0.....

Actually I agree with Reika on this one. Once I got Regen on WHM, I never looked back at CNJ. Sure, CNJ might outdamage WHM with Vanya Gear, but I can't be stopped with Regen and still do good damage.

[Lady]

No sorry, WHM is a better CNJ.... It can use every ability the CNJ has, and then some. Same with every other class->job in 1.0.....

But you could not longer use skills from other classes. So in that sense its arguable that CNJ was better.

[Reika]

Actually I agree with Reika on this one. Once I got Regen on WHM, I never looked back at CNJ. Sure, CNJ might outdamage WHM with Vanya Gear, but I can't be stopped with Regen and still do good damage.

Simply this, WHM has far more survivability than CNJ, and your damage doesnt even have any real noticable decrease. even without vanya gear, you can always trade out some AF pieces with Wind/earth mag potency ringbands with materia in them, a different helm so as not to decrease your attack m potency, and still do wonders in healing to yourself, with just regen.

If you actually picked CNJ over WHM after getting regen, well I'm sorry you made things so hard for yourself :/

[Reika]

But you could not longer use skills from other classes. So in that sense its arguable that CNJ was better.

Actually you could still use skills from Gladiator and Pugilist.... Each job had 2 other classes it could still take skills from. Having gladiator and pugilist alone meant you had sentinel for dmg reduction, featherfoot for a free evade + mp regain from it, second wind, the MP-less self heal....

and if you were really getting beat on, by golly benediction. Cant do that on CNJ.

and by golly if youre still sucking it, Repose and run away to fight another day.