Removing elemental nukes from WHM

[Reika]

Who died and had you make the rules? WHM can be anything they (SE) want it to be. And if you think all WHM has ever done in Final Fantasy is heal, you're dead wrong. Perhaps they didn't use wind and earth elements, mind you. But WHMs have been known for killing evil beings and undead. FFXI's WHM was the worst at this of any form of WHM, in all actuality. Also there is tons of precedent for healers that also can fight back in general fantasy terms:

WoW: priest had the shadow tree which enhanced offensive capability.
Fire Emblem had multiple healing classes that could also wield weapons or damage magic: War Monk (aka War Priest) and trickster whom wield staves (healing 'weapons" in the series)
Dungeons & Dragons (both online and tabletop) had clerics- Whom have some proficency with certain weapons- by way of Feats and/or subclassing, you could create what were commonly known as "Battle Clerics" who could fight as well as heal (Paladins in the game are similar, except with more fighting ability and less magic ability). Or you could make a Chaotic Evil aligned cleric- This transforms all Cure Wounds spells into Create Wounds spells and Heal into Harm.

*cues joke about the guy the WHM killed being the "who"*

You can't do this in the middle of a fight. Why change jobs anyway when you can simply temporarily activate a stance?

Again, as I explained before, CNJ/WHM get these spells for solo and PvP viability. That's also pretty much the only reason WHM had any damage magic at all in FFXI. If the only thing you can do is healing, that leads to a very dull class that people only play out of necessity, not because it's fun to play. Obviously other classes are capable of more damage, but it's there in a pinch if you really need it. Also, your reasoning behind your statement is flawed, because jobs only add capabilities to a class- they don't remove anything except the ability to sub abilities from any other class. So whatever attack magic potency CNJ has, WHM inherits.

Just because you want the job to be singular in purpose doesn't mean everyone else does. Open the mind, think outside the box.

Thats it.. all you're in favor of is WHM staying a multi-role class where as the job systems purpose was to give a class ONE role in the party.

I think I would rather motion for BLM to recieve its heals and resurrect back, as well as some of the debuffs it lost so it can become an excelent DD and moderate healer, so now it can have 2 roles.

PLD should get a stance that increases its attack power by 40% while reducing its defense by and enmity eneration by 30%, giving it another role.

MNK should be given a stance that increases its evasion by 60%, enmity generation by 40% and reduces attack power by 40% giving it another role.

BRD should get a stance that reduces all song effects by 60% while increasing its attack power by 60%
. . . . . . . .

[Alhanelem]

You cant have the best healer and the best DD packed into one class.

No one is suggesting that. It is the combination of all a job's abilities that define it.

Take PvP as an example, as it is the main reason for any non-DPS-focused class to have any damage capability- All classes need to be "viable" in it. CNJ/WHM needs some damage abilities to be fully viable. You can cure yourself and stay alive til you run out of MP (and pray someone else comes along to kill them for you) but that doesn't win a fight. No, you damage them when you can and heal yourself when you can- A fight will take you a little longer, but as long as you can win, that's all that matters. BLM wins the fight by nuking as hard as it can. WHM wins the fight by avoiding death while chipping away at the opponent. It's like the tortoise and the hare- Fast as you can vs slow and steady.

[Shougun]

No one is suggesting that. It is the combination of all a job's abilities that define it.

Take PvP as an example, as it is the main reason for any non-DPS-focused class to have any damage capability- All classes need to be "viable" in it. CNJ/WHM needs some damage abilities to be fully viable. You can cure yourself and stay alive til you run out of MP (and pray someone else comes along to kill them for you) but that doesn't win a fight. No, you damage them when you can and heal yourself when you can- A fight will take you a little longer, but as long as you can win, that's all that matters. BLM wins the fight by nuking as hard as it can. WHM wins the fight by avoiding death while chipping away at the opponent. It's like the tortoise and the hare- Fast as you can vs slow and steady.

Oh I'm defintely not aganist the WHM being able to defend itself - soloing with no DD spells.. so sucky be easier to level a alchemist solo.

I'm saying because of the wheel and because it is divided between CNJ and THM, that CNJ can out damage THM on stone weak monsters. I've been a fully geared BLM (double melds and higher) out damaged on stone weak monsters by a healing geared white mage. Of course there are like 3 stone weak monsters in the whole game.

What I was saying is if there are bosses weak to stone, they can usurp a BLM. If you need to DD the boss just bring WHM's no point to bring a BLM because if things go to shit you can heal and raise and stoneskin forever.

So I dont want that to happen. So either no boss should ever be weak to stone, or there needs to be very interesting mechanics in place for each stone weak boss like I exampled cannons on the battlefield charged by BLM's thunder - that then deal high non elemental damage. (Kinsey example is that a bunch of side monsters the BLM needs to destroy in great swathes, weak to fire would work nicely there lol)

CNJ/WHM should never lose its DD - I just dont want it to become a main DD.

[Alaltus]

I dont get the first part, BLM rape toads because they are weak to lightning. And yes I would be upset if CNJ/WHM is a better DD on -any- content besides gimick content like bosses dying to raise (which I think would be funny XD).

Sorry Shougun we're going down into the depths of the ancient city ~ Sil'dah WHM/MNK/PLD DD only.... we have 1 space left, want to heal on Thaumaturge? =P

[Shougun]

Sorry Shougun we're going down into the depths of the ancient city ~ Sil'dah WHM/MNK/PLD DD only.... we have 1 space left, want to heal on Thaumaturge? =P

!!! I always wanted to heal on THM! XD

Actually.. once I was on THM in my "im in a noob PUG" set up so when I went into a dungeon I forgot and people started to wonder how I was curing and raising..

Then I was like oh yeah I just got stuck doing 40 Ifrit runs back to back and forgot what class I was...

So I've done that lol

Just as an aside, I am excited to see quake - it has always looked epic >.>

[Altena]

[whoopeeragon]

I didn't see a point to the topic in the first place.

[Thebard]

All these people wanting to "that" job from ffxi circa 2005 but not comming out and saying it is really quite sad.

[Alhanelem]

If WHM can't lv on it's own, play as CNJ instead

WHM is an extension of CNJ. Beyond subbing abilities from a greater range of classes, there is no difference between playing as WHM and playing as CNJ from a solo standpoint. Cleric Stance isn't even a WHM ability, it's a CNJ ability.

Jobs have access to all the abilities of the class they branch from. Therefore, whether or not you have WHM set, you have all the spells of CNJ. This isn't going to change, so you'd better start accepting it soon. Like I said before, You don't make the rules, and there is no reason why WHM can't have any offensive magic for its own protection and soloing ability. As long as it's not superior to another job's magic, it won't be taking over anyone else's role.

In most games the "healer" class has at least some limited ability to defend itself. There is not one good reason to take this away from WHM. The only thing that was really being disputed in the first place is why WHM gets earth/wind/water instead of just astral or "holy" magic. That is an argument I can understand, though I'm not really bothered by it.

The underlying issue, though, is that people are dissatisfied with BLM.

This is news to me? People used BLM all the time on my server... I was very satisfied with it as being fun to play and also useful/wanted. WHM/CNJ haivng damaging spells has nothing to do with people's satisfaction level of BLM and it's really an entirely different topic.

It baffles me why people are insisting that WHM should "lose" the capabilities it has from CNJ, when the Job isn't supposed to totally transform a class into something else, but rather strengthen specific aspects of the class. If you want to maximize healing, then just play normally. If you need to pull out your damage spells, you use cleric stance. Either way, you're not going to be more powerful than a BLM- but you have a means of defending yourself in PvP and a means of soloing in PvE. Transforming WHM into 100% nothing but cures and buffs would make the job markedly more dull, especially while leveling up- People will only play the job out of necessity and not because it's fun.

In FF1, WHM eradicated undead. In FFXI, WHM damage spells went from horrendus against regular enemies to decent against undead (and cures could also be used as damage against undead, though this was absent in FFXIV). There is plenty of precedent for WHM to have damaging spells. Holy magic is as much about smiting evil as it is about healing wounds.

Basically, people in this thread are trying to make WHM/CNJ suck more by restricting its capabiltiies. WHM was never in any danger of taking over anyone else's role so any line of discussion suggesting this to be the case is ridiculous.

[Alhanelem]

Yeah currently 3 mobs but further in my post I said that would be a big problem if those mobs include EG contents (where balance matters most). BLM can be left out if SE is trying to design content where each class is left out of something (I dont that is there intention though).

There is absolutely NO PROBLEM with different jobs shining against different mobs, whether they are endgame mobs or not. I would be totally fine with a fight that you need WHMs to kill it, as long as there was also a fight where you need BLMs to kill it instead. If there weren't different mobs that different jobs were more useful on, there wouldn't be any reason to have a bunch of different jobs in the first place.