Removing elemental nukes from WHM

[faris]

Yea, a handful of old final fantasy games, like one or two.
People are just going to continue pick and choose here with these 'this class should be able to this' stuff and always have their own opinion of which FF did it better. Like for say if SMN was the same as FFIV's summoner Rydia, you would have the ability to summon, and use both white and black magic to an extent, until you disapear into the underworld for a while and get better at black magic and summoning but become unable to use white magic.

FFIV's white mage Rosa also did not have elemental magic, but the bestest cures and some holy magic for attacking. Some people dont want that 'version' of the white mage tho, they want the version from [instert FF title here] that could use stone and aero...

You're not getting my point. The early games gave the base classes their capabilities. IV, VI, and IX gave us characters with jobs, but their own unique things as characters which shouldn't be confused with a typical job capability. As I said in the "ninjas should get dogs, omg!" thread, People need to learn that FF characters =/= their characters in games which introduced characters with varying personalities and personal abilities rather than guys which were certain jobs which you could name.

Your example's a little flawed too. Rydia's white and black magic was designed to give her a purpose before she got get her summons / Porom and Palom were introduced / Rosa could join the party. Furthermore, she came back to the party at a point where Rosa was in the group, but without her white magic. Why? Because she was designed to be healing support for when Rosa/Porom wasn't in the party. That's why.

SMN will never be the same as Rydia. Rydia is Rydia and she is the way she is, has the skills and magic she has for storyline reasons exclusive to her character. (Because after all, what are the odds of every single summoner ever, in any Final Fantasy having their hometown destroyed by a pesky dark knight and being dragged off to the Feymarch by Leviathan which becomes all of their surrogate fathers?)

It's not a case of everyone wanting a certain white mage from a certain game either. It's a matter that a class in a MMO requires a certain amount of resilience, no matter the class. Even white mage, which suffers from remarkably poor defence as penalization already. It needs some way to inflict damage on an enemy for solo. If white mage becomes nothing but the Rosa example of bestest cures ever (which was more of a personality trait, really. She was well known not for just being a white mage, but a really, really talented healer) it is completely impossible to play without a group. Groups are not always around in MMOs.

[Reika]

You're not getting my point. The early games gave the base classes their capabilities. IV, VI, and IX gave us characters with jobs, but their own unique things as characters which shouldn't be confused with a typical job capability. As I said in the "ninjas should get dogs, omg!" thread, People need to learn that FF characters =/= their characters in games which introduced characters with varying personalities and personal abilities rather than guys which were certain jobs which you could name.

Your example's a little flawed too. Rydia's white and black magic was designed to give her a purpose before she got get her summons / Porom and Palom were introduced / Rosa could join the party. Furthermore, she came back to the party at a point where Rosa was in the group, but without her white magic. Why? Because she was designed to be healing support for when Rosa/Porom wasn't in the party. That's why.

SMN will never be the same as Rydia. Rydia is Rydia and she is the way she is, has the skills and magic she has for storyline reasons exclusive to her character. (Because after all, what are the odds of every single summoner ever, in any Final Fantasy having their hometown destroyed by a pesky dark knight and being dragged off to the Feymarch by Leviathan which becomes all of their surrogate fathers?)

It's not a case of everyone wanting a certain white mage from a certain game either. It's a matter that a class in a MMO requires a certain amount of resilience, no matter the class. Even white mage, which suffers from remarkably poor defence as penalization already. It needs some way to inflict damage on an enemy for solo. If white mage becomes nothing but the Rosa example of bestest cures ever (which was more of a personality trait, really. She was well known not for just being a white mage, but a really, really talented healer) it is completely impossible to play without a group. Groups are not always around in MMOs.

It is the case where people want X version of whm, because you and others keep bringing up the whm in FF title that can use aero and stone as an example to justify FFXIV's whm being able to use aero and stone. Anyone can use another FF to justify why and people have been doing just that.

Just like there are versions of blm where blm have EVERY element at their disposal. I'll be happy if they do just that thus un-#$(@#$ blm mage.

[faris]

It is the case where people want X version of whm, because you and others keep bringing up the whm in FF title that can use aero and stone as an example to justify FFXIV's whm being able to use aero and stone. Anyone can use another FF to justify why and people have been doing just that.

Just like there are versions of blm where blm have EVERY element at their disposal.

You can't read, I give up.

[Radacci]

Well yeah I want the BLM to have spells useful in any situation by ---following--- the elemental wheel. Now that we have like 90 slots we can have many more spells so SE can stop condensing the BLM into "aoe fire" "single target lightning" "debuff ice".

Because I dont want to be casting thunder for the rest of my BLM lifetime.

Unlike the WHM, BLM is only DD - so we shouldnt be talking like WHM needs to be on par with BLM. BLM needs to swamp WHM in DD- but everyone will cry if the BLM says "i'm going support" because WHM swamps BLM in support (which is already true lol). The BLM swamps WHM in a small average, and most obvious on thunder weak monsters but WHM can and will out damage a BLM on stone weak monsters lol.

What 90 slots are you talking about?
If BLM was superior DPS in every situation, it would make all other DPS classes obsolete; there were already cases in 1.0 where you just stack BLM. It was WAR and BLM, or gtfo -.- I certainly don't want that scenario in ARR.
But i agree, it was mostly just chaining lightning, or fire for AOE. But it wasn't actually much different for other classes. most had just 2-3 combos you use most of the time

[Alaltus]

Black Mage already had it's chance to have all the elemental spells back when Conjurer or Thaumaturge were in line for the job, the player's voices were heard and SE made their choice. Guess who got Black Mage? Sorry but Conjurer should not sacrifice even 1 element to any other Mage let alone all 3 to Thaumaturge. There are plenty of other spells in the Black Mage library SE can dust off if it comes to it.

[Yrusama]

TL;DR, but THIS:

Quake especially.

Can we have a Float spell later on, please? And more damage floors like Aurum Vale so it doesn't go to waste? I'll understand if not. ._.

[DardGhalawad]

We are forgetting a few details about mages class/jobs.

CNJ - healer, buffer
WHM - healer, buffer, party debuffer, enemy stranding control

* WHM should be a job especialized on: Spirits (ghosts) type, Demon type and Undead type mobs.

THM - nuker, dotter
BLM - nuker, dotter, enemy debuffer, enemy stranding control

* BLM should be a job especialized on: Elemental spirits, and mob elemental weakness.

I'm just meanning that WHM is lacking on spell content like BLM. Yoshi should do a deep investigation on these 2 jobs to balance them properly, making them unique to have in party. Also the concept of WHM been a dotter in the absence of a BLM is also a good concept, but make it impossible to be it in a presence of a BLM. That way jobs rules will not be about multy-tasking.

[Vanguard319]

WHM in XIV is more of the combat medic rather than a pure healer: Their role is to heal, but they also can fight if called for, and yes, I've seen whms win the fight in a near party wipe myself. I'm inclined to disagree with the op on this one.

[NoloeTazier]

WHM in XIV is more of the combat medic rather than a pure healer: Their role is to heal, but they also can fight if called for, and yes, I've seen whms win the fight in a near party wipe myself. I'm inclined to disagree with the op on this one.

Altena isn't arguing for removing WHM/CNJ's ability to Nuke, merely transferring Stone/Aero/Water elements to Black Mage and Banish/Whatever becoming their new nukes. If they made mobs actually follow an Elemental Wheel, WHM/CNJ could potentially out damage BLM/THM when it came to mobs like Undead/Dark based mobs.

Also she's trying to say Spells as a whole need to fixed, not just WHM/CNJs but BLM/THMs as well.

In saying that, I feel as though the whole spell system needs to have another serious look at. Spells should be decided on elemental weakness, not whether you are "killing 1 mob" (thunder) or you are "killing multiple mobs" (fire). Also let's face it, the ice spells suck donkey penis.

I would like to see the old mechanic return of Fire & Fira being single target, and Firaga being aoe (same goes with the other elements). You could do this across all 6 elements quite easily (with an animation rework of course). If you still wanted to give additional effects, you could do this within the element but I do believe that the reason to cast spells should be based on enemy weaknesses.

truly do hope that we see the classic FF elements return, instead of it becoming a bland "fire to aoe, thunder to single target", and never see anything else cast.

It's a Mage problem period.

[DardGhalawad]

Altena isn't arguing for removing WHM/CNJ's ability to Nuke, merely transferring Stone/Aero/Water elements to Black Mage and Banish/Whatever becoming their new nukes. If they made mobs actually follow an Elemental Wheel, WHM/CNJ could potentially out damage BLM/THM when it came to mobs like Undead/Dark based mobs.

Also she's trying to say Spells as a whole need to fixed, not just WHM/CNJs but BLM/THMs as well.





It's a Mage problem period.

Totally agree with that statement. Here's a like :P