Removing elemental nukes from WHM

[Kallera]

Besides blizzard and freeze the other elements are aoe, that and their damage isn't to match the thunder combo (flare DoT is nice though).

Or further that if WHM is fighting stone weak monsters it probably means its resistant to lightning (if irc Earth strong aganist -> Lightning which means stone weak monster would be a lightning element being strong aganist lightning elements).

So advantage.. no - BLM will be inferior in those situations. Like gnats which are lightning element.

Advantage as in delivering nukes and magic attacks that aren't the monster's weakness, as in job trqit upping magic attack and gear focusing on int, the stat for offensive magic. Its not like they are as helpless as what people in this thread want white mage and conjurer to be.

[Shougun]

Advantage as in delivering nukes and magic attacks that aren't the monster's weakness, as in job trqit upping magic attack and gear focusing on int, the stat for offensive magic. Its not like they are as helpless as what people in this thread want white mage and conjurer to be.

Helpless no, but BLM would not have the advantage in that situation. Even a fully battle decked BLM vs "healing" decked WHM in that scenario WHM wins (if you attack by weakness you get like 2 to 3 times the damage - and the inverse of that if you are attacking by resistance). But like I said many posts ago, bosses dont seem to care about elements and there are very few stone weak monsters - so it never really became an issue in 1.0.

Of course if you want to make the magic wheel important then it would be. Some people have offered suggestions like designing content within the boss fight that goes around attacking the boss, like BLMs needed to nuke massive side swarms or charge machinery that damages the boss (and so they can ignore that the boss has resistance to their spells and still outdamage the WHM, without fking with the WHM).

[Alhanelem]

really... the class/job designs for cnj/whm and thm/blm are fine...... The only thing the ideas of this thread can achieve is an attempt to make WHM more like WHM from some other game.

It's fine that it's not the same. Some jobs change a lot from one game to the next.

I wonder if you played Black Mage enough to know Fire and Ice spells really suck.

Actually, they don't. Freeze is good, flare is good if you have the balls to get close enough, and the other fire spells are fine if you need AoE. Blizzara isnt super powerful but is very useful when you need instant damage.

[Jinrya-Geki]

really... the class/job designs for cnj/whm and thm/blm are fine...... The only thing the ideas of this thread can achieve is an attempt to make WHM more like WHM from some other game.

It's fine that it's not the same. Some jobs change a lot from one game to the next.

Actually, they don't. Freeze is good, flare is good if you have the balls to get close enough, and the other fire spells are fine if you need AoE. Blizzara isnt super powerful but is very useful when you need instant damage.

The only good thing about freeze is the enmity drop, it's damage is not outstanding.

Flare is aoe around you, that alone makes it useless. It's DoT is awful, why? Because you mostly are using it on trash ,mobs, which everyone else should be using their aoes as well killing them, like the ants. What good is a DoT when the mob is dead within 1 or 2 aoes? And if the tank kites, are you gonna chase around the mob to try and flare it? I like to stay as far away as the mob as possible to ensure maximum damage potential, not waste my time trying to wait for the right time to run in waste precious seconds to rest or deal max damage.

And forgive me for not clarifying enough, when I mean Fire and Ice I mean Fire/Fira/Firaga and Blizzard/Blizzara.

Misers weakness is fire, yet you deal way more damage doing lightning and you say more MP.

[Kallera]

The only good thing about freeze is the enmity drop, it's damage is not outstanding.

Flare is aoe around you, that alone makes it useless. It's DoT is awful, why? Because you mostly are using it on trash ,mobs, which everyone else should be using their aoes as well killing them, like the ants. What good is a DoT when the mob is dead within 1 or 2 aoes? And if the tank kites, are you gonna chase around the mob to try and flare it? I like to stay as far away as the mob as possible to ensure maximum damage potential, not waste my time trying to wait for the right time to run in waste precious seconds to rest or deal max damage.

And forgive me for not clarifying enough, when I mean Fire and Ice I mean Fire/Fira/Firaga and Blizzard/Blizzara.

Misers weakness is fire, yet you deal way more damage doing lightning and you say more MP.

And when a mobs weakness is stone you get on the forums to complain and demand blm be reworked. . Not sure about the damage, but its pretty mp effective...

One spell element shouldn't solve every encounter.

[Jinrya-Geki]

And when a mobs weakness is stone you get on the forums to complain and demand blm be reworked. . Not sure about the damage, but its pretty mp effective...

One spell element shouldn't solve every encounter.

Yeah I do demand it be reworked. Because the split was the dumbest idea ever. Cjn/whm should have gotten Banish/Banishra and Holy/Holyra and that All-Mp holy should be renamed Mega Holy. They could have used Dalamud event to change the story of Cjn and Thm entirely and give Thm/Blm all elemental spells again.

Cause you you know what resists holy/light damage? Mobs that are holy-based. How many mobs are we gonna fight that are light/holy based? Versus the ones that are Lightning resistant, or have a weakness to ice. The answer is already a staggering painful obvious answer.

Garuda weak to ice, who spams ice on her? No one.

Miser is weak to fire, yet lightning is far superior damage and MP efficient.

Titan will resist lightning, so what are we gonna do? Dry our mp pool out trying to use fire, or try to lolice him to death? No we should have Water/Water/Waterga that is just as effective as Thundera combo.

Ramuh, is the same problem if the spells stay exactly the same. If we had Stone/Stonera/Stonega similar to Thunder combo it wouldn't be a problem.

But they are wasted on Cjn/Whm. I don't care if you want to solo, or damage deal. Ok cool, but you screw me as black mage when it comes to resistances and lowering my damage potential, when you could have a different spell list and still have a damage output. Yet all the white mages seem content with keeping the elemental spells which you don't need.

[Kinseykinz]

Yeah I do demand it be reworked. Because the split was the dumbest idea ever. Cjn/whm should have gotten Banish/Banishra and Holy/Holyra and that All-Mp holy should be renamed Mega Holy. They could have used Dalamud event to change the story of Cjn and Thm entirely and give Thm/Blm all elemental spells again.

Cause you you know what resists holy/light damage? Mobs that are holy-based. How many mobs are we gonna fight that are light/holy based? Versus the ones that are Lightning resistant, or have a weakness to ice. The answer is already a staggering painful obvious answer.

Garuda weak to ice, who spams ice on her? No one.

Miser is weak to fire, yet lightning is far superior damage and MP efficient.

Titan will resist lightning, so what are we gonna do? Dry our mp pool out trying to use fire, or try to lolice him to death? No we should have Water/Water/Waterga that is just as effective as Thundera combo.

Ramuh, is the same problem if the spells stay exactly the same. If we had Stone/Stonera/Stonega similar to Thunder combo it wouldn't be a problem.

But they are wasted on Cjn/Whm. I don't care if you want to solo, or damage deal. Ok cool, but you screw me as black mage when it comes to resistances and lowering my damage potential, when you could have a different spell list and still have a damage output. Yet all the white mages seem content with keeping the elemental spells which you don't need.

Or...you could have faith that the devs are bright enough to realize that Black Mage can't be effective on battles like Titan and Ramuh given their spell-set limitations and create other battle mechanics within the fight that still make BLM's useful...just not in a direct manner.
-Smaller pack of mobs that spawn during the battle Mobs that need slept
-Smaller pack of mobs that spawn during the battle that need aoe'd
-Machines or devices that need 'charged' with thunder magic to aid in battle
...etc

Also, the actual Elemental damage each type of spell puts out is far less important in this game than what the mechanics behind the spell allow it to do...especially when cast in a combo.

Case in point: Mistress fight.
She's weak to fire yet lighting is the more effective spell.

Lighting magic is SUPPOSED to be the better choice for comboing on Single-target Mobs. When cast in combo, the combo bonuses even help to raise your damage.

Fire magic is typically for groups of weaker mobs that need quick AOE damage.

Ice magic is typically 'defensive' cast spells for the Black Mage. (this is also why in 1.0 the ice spells tended to do less damage as less damage=less hate)

During 1.0 SE changed how the whole Black Mage thing works. In past games, Elemental Affinity meant everything...now the modifiers are more important. Sure, there are exceptions...it would be a terribad idea to cast Lighting on Ramuh, but overall, even if a normal mob is resistant to a specific spell you can still kill it with exactly that spell.


Lastly, if this is just a 'BLM needs spells just in case they have to face an elemental resistant mob' the more prudent path would be asking for an 'Umbral' DD spell and not an Elemental, as then you would always have at least one spell you could cast no matter the mobs elemental resistance.

As you said yourself:

How many mobs are we gonna fight that are light/holy based? Versus the ones that are Lightning resistant, or have a weakness to ice. The answer is already a staggering painful obvious answer.

Well the same could be said of Dark/Umbral-based spells. So if anything ask for that, and leave CNJ/WHM out of it.

[Alaltus]

really... the class/job designs for cnj/whm and thm/blm are fine...... The only thing the ideas of this thread can achieve is an attempt to make WHM more like WHM from some other game.

It's fine that it's not the same. Some jobs change a lot from one game to the next.

Actually, they don't. Freeze is good, flare is good if you have the balls to get close enough, and the other fire spells are fine if you need AoE. Blizzara isnt super powerful but is very useful when you need instant damage.

They have their uses sure, but they are utility based. If it wasn't for them being elemental and taking up possible slots for more single target elemental nukes, it would be fine but because they are it extremely limits Black Mage's options. They can't take advantage of any weaknesses, they can't avoid hitting enemy resistances. Because the utility dictates the use of the spell rather than the weaknesses and resistances of the enemy. Which is why Thm/Blm needs their spells revised, they should still have the utility but it should not be tied to one singular element.

edit:

For example they could make fire/ra/ga/flare blizzard/ra/ga/freeze Thunder/ra/ga/burst all single target nukes and bring back toggle or something similar. But that toggle/ability halved the potency of the nukes themselves or increased the spells mp cost. Replace certain other utility effects with abilities/spells and then you pretty much have the best of both worlds.

[Kinseykinz]

They have their uses sure, but they are utility based. If it wasn't for them being elemental and taking up possible slots for more single target elemental nukes, it would be fine but because they are it extremely limits Black Mage's options. They can't take advantage of any weaknesses, they can't avoid hitting enemy resistances. Because the utility dictates the use of the spell rather than the weaknesses and resistances of the enemy. Which is why Thm/Blm needs their spells revised, they should still have the utility but it should not be tied to one singular element.

edit:

For example they could make fire/ra/ga/flare blizzard/ra/ga/freeze Thunder/ra/ga/burst all single target nukes and bring back toggle or something similar. But that toggle/ability halved the potency of the nukes themselves or increased the spells mp cost. Replace certain other utility effects with abilities/spells and then you pretty much have the best of both worlds.

Way earlier in the thread it was pointed out that the it appears from watching Alpha ARR gameplay that the 'debuff' effects were removed from CNJ/WHM's DD spells. It was also pointed out that all classes/jobs are getting reworked. It is fairly likely that Black Mages nukes will be stripped of some of their 'enfeebles' etc but upped in damage. SE had to add these effects in 1.0 because otherwise, we'd have no debuffer...but with the addition of Arcanist/Scholar to ARR, debuffs will fall to them. My point... Blizzard might actually be a spell tree that does more damage than it did in 1.0.

[Laume]

*sits backs and reads* At least I'm learning a lot on how to play those two jobs. I main drg so i never really cared for learning the jobs.