#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

[Aravell]

But Stormblood also marked the beginning of the tank power creep. As a DRK I could soak up entire tankbusters with TBN and suddenly in ShB all tanks could to that. And it got even worse with EW.

Back in the day I have learned to pre-cast my heals for tank busters, today that mechanic is entirely gone from healer gameplay. I throw in a Benison for good measure, but tanks deal with busters alone these days.

I wouldn't call that tank power creep, more like tank specialisations.

DRK could zero out a lot of singular damage sources, but they were weak in sustain against a single target and would eventually die without a dedicated healer.
WAR had strong heals and mitigation, but half their defensive kit was locked behind a -20% damage stance which also locked them out of their strongest attack.
PLD was sturdy for a longer period of time through their extra defensives and passive block, but their damage was lower and Clemency costs them damage to use.

So we had a tank that was strong against busters but weak on overall sustain, a tank that was strong in self-healing and defensives but ended up ping-ponging their HP bar in practice, and a tank that's generally sturdy with good support but doesn't contribute as much to killing the boss. I'd say they still has solid identities and weaknesses back then. ShB did ruin that balance by removing weaknesses from the tanks though.

I've said i think tank mitigation values are a issue into why healers don't actually need to heal much, I do not think sustain is even close to the issue, Taking away tank self heals and team healing is just removing more stuff from tanks to make healers feel good about themselves, it doesn't actually fix any of the core issues, I don't know why you are so insistent that making tanks worse will be your magical fix to healers.

While I agree that tanks could keep their self-healing, I think tanks should in no case have dedicated targetted party healing for free.

Stuff like Divine Veil is fine, it's just 1 instance of heal on a decent cooldown. Clemency is also fine because it cuts into your damage to use it. Stuff like Nascent Flash is not fine as it costs nothing to use and is also too strong, I think free targetted healing should stay firmly in the territory of healers and no one else.

[Rithy255]

While I agree that tanks could keep their self-healing, I think tanks should in no case have dedicated targetted party healing for free.

Stuff like Divine Veil is fine, it's just 1 instance of heal on a decent cooldown. Clemency is also fine because it cuts into your damage to use it. Stuff like Nascent Flash is not fine as it costs nothing to use and is also too strong, I think free targetted healing should stay firmly in the territory of healers and no one else.

I disagree to a extent that tanks shouldn't have targeted healing, though I think in a lot of the cases tanks target healing tools are a bit too strong.

Nascent flash being the most egregious example as its 1600 healing, that is doubled due to targeting both the warrior and their target this is of course in addition to warrior having a bunch of healing defensives that make it a clear example of where a tank is taking sustain too far, I think Gunbreakers excog is also a bit too strong in potency and aurora didn't need to be buffed but was fine before so. My issue with paladins self healing is more the selfish holyspirit/blade combo healing more then anything I don't really have a issue with the regen on Sheltron. I think if one limited target self heal can

My main issue with current tanks defensives is the stacked mitigation, I much rather we remove the double mits on a lot of them (15%+15%) and maybe make some of the healing aspects tied to them weaker But I don't think target healing needs to be fully removed.

[Supersnow845]

I've said i think tank mitigation values are a issue into why healers don't actually need to heal much, I do not think sustain is even close to the issue, Taking away tank self heals and team healing is just removing more stuff from tanks to make healers feel good about themselves, it doesn't actually fix any of the core issues, I don't know why you are so insistent that making tanks worse will be your magical fix to healers.

If you actually compared the healing output healers have vs any tank, then you'd realise that Healers beat tanks at healing by a mile, it's not a contest, your problem is that very little healing can get you through a ultimate, so you can just go 4 paladins, with 4 dps who have healing utilities (or 2 plds 1 war in TOP), If healers were actually required to use their full kits (which they should) then you wouldn't be able to replace all healers with tanks like you would now, sure you can do that by also just removing all healing from non healers but I don't see how this makes healer fun? it's just forcing you to use it without solving how little healing you need to do.

You say the game enforces trinity but also has systems in place where you don't have to always use the trinity system, sure it's there as a guideline and enforced to a degree but I don't think a strict trinity system will work for this game, at least I think we should evolve past the baseline idea of the trinity system "tank aggro" "dps do dmg no utility" "healer heal" it' leads to very boring job design where tanks can't really be varied nor can healers be varied, theirs only so many ways a job can actually do it's job that's in a unique way.

I’m not saying that removing sustain from tanks will fix healers (I very very specifically drew mention to that in the comment you quoted). I’m saying that removing sustain from tanks not fixing healers is not itself justification to not do it because the only reason to maintain the status quo is to the benefit of tanks, just as changing it is only to the benefit of healers. Removing tank sustain WILL make healers better, it won’t fix them but it will make them better, so in this instance why is the tank the more important party (again I’m not necessarily advocating this I’m just pointing out your logic is entirely built on the assumption that the tanks fun is more important than the healers for no other reason than its the current status quo)

Upping damage nerfs tanks by default so it basically ends up the same, but one applies retroactively as well as going forward

[Aravell]

I disagree to a extent that tanks shouldn't have targeted healing, though I think in a lot of the cases tanks target healing tools are a bit too strong.

Nascent flash being the most egregious example as its 1600 healing, that is doubled due to targeting both the warrior and their target this is of course in addition to warrior having a bunch of healing defensives that make it a clear example of where a tank is taking sustain too far, I think Gunbreakers excog is also a bit too strong in potency and aurora didn't need to be buffed but was fine before so. My issue with paladins self healing is more the selfish holyspirit/blade combo healing more then anything I don't really have a issue with the regen on Sheltron. I think if one limited target self heal can

My main issue with current tanks defensives is the stacked mitigation, I much rather we remove the double mits on a lot of them (15%+15%) and maybe make some of the healing aspects tied to them weaker But I don't think target healing needs to be fully removed.

Note that I didn't say tank targetted healing should be removed, I said it shouldn't be free.

I think Clemency is a great example, it's strong and can be used to save a run but it has an opportunity cost, you cannot just spam it for free. Meanwhile, you can use Nascent Flash whenever you want at no cost to anyone, that's too far out a tank's purview in my opinion. I don't have a big issue with tanks being able to heal, I just think that free healing should only belong to the healer role because it's their main reason for even being in the party.

[Rithy255]

Note that I didn't say tank targetted healing should be removed, I said it shouldn't be free.

Well ideally it should cost you defensively to use your target mit/heal on allies, the issue is that you already got so much defensive power as a tank that using it on a ally isn't a real cost. Hence its just free to use your short cooldowns on allies, because it's not like you'll need to save it for bosses tank busters ect, Theirs no real big cost.

Too a extent it shouldn't be free if it exceeds a reasonable amount, I think some sort of target healing value (without cost) is fine, You'd find it hard to see posts complaining about aurora for example back in shadowbringers, but it was still free.

The issue is multiple reasons at the end of the day when you break it down, 1. tanks have too much defensive value 2. this combines with tanks having self/target heals 3. theirs not a lot of outgoing damage, all these issues are combined to create one bigger issue, my solution would be to tone down that value as a whole. Of course tanks are going to feel like they do the healers job if theirs so little damage that one or two healing cooldowns on a tank can replace them in any sort of content.

Healers shouldn't have "free" heals like tanks they should have a cost, I think that cost is obvious misusing your ogcd healing options, should make you full back on your GCD's, but the issue with that is theirs so little damage due to the tank not taking much and how fights are designed that none of these skills are really even needed on both sides.

Upping damage nerfs tanks by default so it basically ends up the same, but one applies retroactively as well as going forward

Problem is removing all forms of sustain will just lead to 3dps 1Healer dungeon speedruns, I think we should consider propping up both tank and healer design I like sustain and supporting on tank so removing that may "fix" healers to you (I don't think it even comes remotely close to fixing healers), but I sure will be more miserable and bored as a tank, it shouldn't be this lose/lose situation. Of course theirs some instances where things have to be took out or nerfed for example bloodwhetting healing in pulls isn't "balanceable" if you want healers to heal in pulls.

Also retroactively old content has never mattered, I do not ever think we should be afraid of making changes because old content exists, we should balance the game around with new content in mind, old content shouldn't hold us back.

[Supersnow845]

Why would removing tank sustain over-encourage 1H3D, neither the DPS nor the healer can control agro which is a big advantage of why current meta involves 1T3D rather than 4D. Regardless didn’t you yourself say that these sort of off comps should be encouraged? Why is it suddenly a problem if 1H3D replaced 1T3D as the most common off comp? (Even though it won’t)

And again for the 3rd time removing tank sustain won’t fix healers but nor does it not fixing healers justify not removing it because it will make healers relatively better. This circles back to my earlier point. You say “if you do this I’ll be more bored as a tank”. Why does your stance matter more than mine? If you want healers to be allowed to have fun tanks have to give up something. What specifically are you as the tank side willing to give up? Simply changing nothing but giving healers DPS options doesn’t fix healers either, tanks proverbially have to give up something somewhere

[Rithy255]

Why would removing tank sustain over-encourage 1H3D, neither the DPS nor the healer can control agro which is a big advantage of why current meta involves 1T3D rather than 4D. Regardless didn’t you yourself say that these sort of off comps should be encouraged? Why is it suddenly a problem if 1H3D replaced 1T3D as the most common off comp? (Even though it won’t)

And again for the 3rd time removing tank sustain won’t fix healers but nor does it not fixing healers justify not removing it because it will make healers relatively better. This circles back to my earlier point. You say “if you do this I’ll be more bored as a tank”. Why does your stance matter more than mine? If you want healers to be allowed to have fun tanks have to give up something. What specifically are you as the tank side willing to give up? Simply changing nothing but giving healers DPS options doesn’t fix healers either, tanks proverbially have to give up something somewhere

It would 100% encourage 1H3Dps in speedruns because whatever does the most damage is what's most important, the main reason why 4dps isn't dungeon meta is because you still need some level of sustain and survivability just not much hencec why you don't need 1/1/2 you just need any 1/3 comp.

I've also said at this rate a thousand times over tanks should give up self survivability and mitigation and some sustain if you even read what i said in the other reply I mentioned that tanks need to give up a bit of their value in mitigation and sustain instances but this should be alongside some wider changes like increasing how much damage you take from all encounters.

I haven't suggested simply changing nothing, I've suggested it isn't tank's having some forms of healing that is the actual issue with healer's it's very easy to point at, because people think "oh hey tanks are doing my job, the way to fix that is just to remove tanks being able to do that!" without actually maybe considering that isn't really a proper solution, your instead punishing tank players for having those tools by basically wanting to fully remove one way a tank can support a group.

Tanks shouldn't need to give up core abilities to their identity so "healers can be fun" if a DPS is performing well we shouldn't just remove it's burst damage buttons, we should scale down its damage, if tanks survivability and sustain are too strong then we should scale it down, not remove it entirely, I don't get how this is a hard concept to understand.

Scaling down tanks proportionality will always be a better solution then just removing sustain & target healing. also stuff like making bosses and AOE do more damage, making sure gear scaling doesn't make any content trivialised, giving healers more to do in downtime (yes healers don't need just dps buttons but extra dps buttons are also something that would make them more fun). All this would make healer play and feel a lot better then just blindly removing sustain and calling it a day, which again is a lose/lose.

[Supersnow845]

“It would still encourage 1H3D as whoever does more damage is preferred”

Again why would this bias 1H3D. Tanks do more damage and healers can’t control agro. Between messy mobs, cast cancelations by autos and the healer basically being a cure bot you still aren’t doing much with 1H3D. That comp is truly a meme comp

And like I’ve said whether you up damage or lower sustain you achieve the same thing. Because either way is a nerf, if you get hit for 20k and heal 10k then I nerf you to heal 5k on a 20k hit it’s exactly the same as if I increased the damage to 40k and you healed 10k. This is the problem, you are trying to build future damage profiles on the shaky foundation of the current tank sustain which also varies wildly with the competency of the playerbase. A flat lower profile for sustain is just easier and better designed. I know you said certain elements should be toned down but it really amounts to needing a flat nerf. This does not necessitate removal but it necessitates a nerf to the point the HEALER is doing the majority of the healing

Because since you still don’t seem to understand I’m not actually advocating for complete removal of sustain. I’m pointing out the flaw in your logic that if it’s unfair to remove sustain to benefit the healers at the expense of the tanks why is the reverse not true. That keeping sustain to the benefit of the tanks and detriment of the healers is also unfair I’m gonna embolden this entire section because if you only read one part please read this. My point isn’t full removal of sustain. My point is it’s flawed to act like removal of sustain is unfair to tanks when the reverse situation is already currently happening to the healers. Because while roundabout solutions can help this problem simply cannot be fixed if tanks continue to want to be able to sustain themselves

Because as I’ve tried to explain tanks have to give somewhere. If you implement your solution (which admittedly is not bad) you will feel noticeably weaker and more reliant on the healer. Your heals will feel paltry and the damage will be high. If the tank playerbase can’t accept that then that’s a wider issue

[ForsakenRoe]

Another aspect to consider with 1H3D and whether it'd be inferior to a nerfed 1T3D (it would, by quite a margin) is the amount of damage that comes in, vs how much we can deal with it. The reason we do 1T3D is not just because the Tank can heal the amount of damage being dealt, but they're also naturally reducing the amount of damage they need to heal, by A: being a Tank and having a passive for it, and B: using cooldowns to mitigate damage.

Healers have much less access to %mit of that kind, their gear has less Defence/MagicDefence stat on it, and so while you could do 1H3D runs, the 'normally a 20k autoattack' from the last boss in Yuyu-thingy new dungeon against a Tank with 200k max HP, becomes 35k per autoattack on a Healer who has 125kish max HP. This is enough to often interrupt your cast times, making healing harder (and making doing damage harder), the extra damage means you run out of 'free' healing tools like OGCDs or Lilies faster, and eventually you're down to using GCD heals that cost you damage. Even then, those cost MP, and you run an actual risk of running out by using them too much

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

Another aspect to consider with 1H3D and whether it'd be inferior to a nerfed 1T3D (it would, by quite a margin) is the amount of damage that comes in, vs how much we can deal with it. The reason we do 1T3D is not just because the Tank can heal the amount of damage being dealt, but they're also naturally reducing the amount of damage they need to heal, by A: being a Tank and having a passive for it, and B: using cooldowns to mitigate damage.

Healers have much less access to %mit of that kind, their gear has less Defence/MagicDefence stat on it, and so while you could do 1H3D runs, the 'normally a 20k autoattack' from the last boss in Yuyu-thingy new dungeon against a Tank with 200k max HP, becomes 35k per autoattack on a Healer who has 125kish max HP. This is enough to often interrupt your cast times, making healing harder (and making doing damage harder), the extra damage means you run out of 'free' healing tools like OGCDs or Lilies faster, and eventually you're down to using GCD heals that cost you damage. Even then, those cost MP, and you run an actual risk of running out by using them too much

Additionally, if your 1H/3D has hard hitter casters like PCT and BLM, they're most likely not going to output their maximum damage potential, especially if they're top in the aggro list due to the same casting interruption.

The existence of tanks in such runs really add a huge amount of stability in a way that lets the party control where the damage's going to be directed at while also having much better means to absorb said damage. Healers can never bring the same to the table. 1H/3D is more of meme than 'meta' for a reason.