#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

[Rithy255]

That’s the thing I think you are missing though

“All roles feel boring in dungeon content”

while that may be true depending on your perspective (I don’t agree with it but I can see why others think that) that alone is not justification for the level of role encroachment that tanks exhibit on healers. Sure completely deleting tank sustain from the game wouldn’t “fix” healers but it would certainly actually allow them to heal more often.

The problem (which is ironically usually leveraged at the healerless ultimate clears) is that the vast majority of people interact with this game via the roulettes and right now tank overreach in the roulettes is excessively high (which is neither here nor there in the front of allowing clears without a particular role as this was possible in SB when we still had a trinity)

Not liking the trinity is fine but whole the game harshly enforces the trinity it’s also not an argument for why one particular role should be de-emphasised in the trinity

I've said i think tank mitigation values are a issue into why healers don't actually need to heal much, I do not think sustain is even close to the issue, Taking away tank self heals and team healing is just removing more stuff from tanks to make healers feel good about themselves, it doesn't actually fix any of the core issues, I don't know why you are so insistent that making tanks worse will be your magical fix to healers.

If you actually compared the healing output healers have vs any tank, then you'd realise that Healers beat tanks at healing by a mile, it's not a contest, your problem is that very little healing can get you through a ultimate, so you can just go 4 paladins, with 4 dps who have healing utilities (or 2 plds 1 war in TOP), If healers were actually required to use their full kits (which they should) then you wouldn't be able to replace all healers with tanks like you would now, sure you can do that by also just removing all healing from non healers but I don't see how this makes healer fun? it's just forcing you to use it without solving how little healing you need to do.

You say the game enforces trinity but also has systems in place where you don't have to always use the trinity system, sure it's there as a guideline and enforced to a degree but I don't think a strict trinity system will work for this game, at least I think we should evolve past the baseline idea of the trinity system "tank aggro" "dps do dmg no utility" "healer heal" it' leads to very boring job design where tanks can't really be varied nor can healers be varied, theirs only so many ways a job can actually do it's job that's in a unique way.

[Supersnow845]

I've said i think tank mitigation values are a issue into why healers don't actually need to heal much, I do not think sustain is even close to the issue, Taking away tank self heals and team healing is just removing more stuff from tanks to make healers feel good about themselves, it doesn't actually fix any of the core issues, I don't know why you are so insistent that making tanks worse will be your magical fix to healers.

If you actually compared the healing output healers have vs any tank, then you'd realise that Healers beat tanks at healing by a mile, it's not a contest, your problem is that very little healing can get you through a ultimate, so you can just go 4 paladins, with 4 dps who have healing utilities (or 2 plds 1 war in TOP), If healers were actually required to use their full kits (which they should) then you wouldn't be able to replace all healers with tanks like you would now, sure you can do that by also just removing all healing from non healers but I don't see how this makes healer fun? it's just forcing you to use it without solving how little healing you need to do.

You say the game enforces trinity but also has systems in place where you don't have to always use the trinity system, sure it's there as a guideline and enforced to a degree but I don't think a strict trinity system will work for this game, at least I think we should evolve past the baseline idea of the trinity system "tank aggro" "dps do dmg no utility" "healer heal" it' leads to very boring job design where tanks can't really be varied nor can healers be varied, theirs only so many ways a job can actually do it's job that's in a unique way.

I’m not saying that removing sustain from tanks will fix healers (I very very specifically drew mention to that in the comment you quoted). I’m saying that removing sustain from tanks not fixing healers is not itself justification to not do it because the only reason to maintain the status quo is to the benefit of tanks, just as changing it is only to the benefit of healers. Removing tank sustain WILL make healers better, it won’t fix them but it will make them better, so in this instance why is the tank the more important party (again I’m not necessarily advocating this I’m just pointing out your logic is entirely built on the assumption that the tanks fun is more important than the healers for no other reason than its the current status quo)

Upping damage nerfs tanks by default so it basically ends up the same, but one applies retroactively as well as going forward

[Rithy255]

Note that I didn't say tank targetted healing should be removed, I said it shouldn't be free.

Well ideally it should cost you defensively to use your target mit/heal on allies, the issue is that you already got so much defensive power as a tank that using it on a ally isn't a real cost. Hence its just free to use your short cooldowns on allies, because it's not like you'll need to save it for bosses tank busters ect, Theirs no real big cost.

Too a extent it shouldn't be free if it exceeds a reasonable amount, I think some sort of target healing value (without cost) is fine, You'd find it hard to see posts complaining about aurora for example back in shadowbringers, but it was still free.

The issue is multiple reasons at the end of the day when you break it down, 1. tanks have too much defensive value 2. this combines with tanks having self/target heals 3. theirs not a lot of outgoing damage, all these issues are combined to create one bigger issue, my solution would be to tone down that value as a whole. Of course tanks are going to feel like they do the healers job if theirs so little damage that one or two healing cooldowns on a tank can replace them in any sort of content.

Healers shouldn't have "free" heals like tanks they should have a cost, I think that cost is obvious misusing your ogcd healing options, should make you full back on your GCD's, but the issue with that is theirs so little damage due to the tank not taking much and how fights are designed that none of these skills are really even needed on both sides.

Upping damage nerfs tanks by default so it basically ends up the same, but one applies retroactively as well as going forward

Problem is removing all forms of sustain will just lead to 3dps 1Healer dungeon speedruns, I think we should consider propping up both tank and healer design I like sustain and supporting on tank so removing that may "fix" healers to you (I don't think it even comes remotely close to fixing healers), but I sure will be more miserable and bored as a tank, it shouldn't be this lose/lose situation. Of course theirs some instances where things have to be took out or nerfed for example bloodwhetting healing in pulls isn't "balanceable" if you want healers to heal in pulls.

Also retroactively old content has never mattered, I do not ever think we should be afraid of making changes because old content exists, we should balance the game around with new content in mind, old content shouldn't hold us back.