#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

[Supersnow845]

“It’s just dungeons bro they don’t matter” tank mains really don’t like when you flip the logic around and go “it’s just dungeons bro so my holy should totally permanently stun the enemy and I should do 50% more damage than you for no reason while you have a one button rotation”

It’s just casual content only ever seems to apply when healers are sick of thier gameplay being boring slop

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

“If we nerf tanks to the point healer need to heal in dungeons tanks would just be a melee dps lol”

Well good news for you, healers are already pseudo casters with gimped damage. Honestly at this point healer icon should be changed into duty finder ticket icon. It’s what we are created for: to pop duty finder queues, and y’all will like it.

Ah, imagine sentencing a game content into the ”not fun”-box. Something doesn’t add up there lol.

EDIT: Not to mention the said content is something that every players has to interact at some point to progress… you know, MSQ and stuffs? What’s with the aversion to actually make this progress fun—and in turn, making recycled content like roulettes more fun & engaging? Why’s all the ‘fun’ being locked away in some obscure content that over half of the playerbase don’t even touch? I mean I guess only Creatively Bankrupt Unit 3 can know the real answer… lol

[Dante131]

“If we nerf tanks to the point healer need to heal in dungeons tanks would just be a melee dps lol”

Well good news for you, healers are already pseudo casters with gimped damage. Honestly at this point healer icon should be changed into duty finder ticket icon. It’s what we are created for: to pop duty finder queues, and y’all will like it.

Ah, imagine sentencing a game content into the ”not fun”-box. Something doesn’t add up there lol.

sadly it seems this is the way now

[Rithy255]

“It’s just dungeons bro they don’t matter” tank mains really don’t like when you flip the logic around and go “it’s just dungeons bro so my holy should totally permanently stun the enemy and I should do 50% more damage than you for no reason while you have a one button rotation”

It’s just casual content only ever seems to apply when healers are sick of thier gameplay being boring slop

If healers want more interesting gameplay give them more damage buttons and things to do, you can likely get away with reducing some defensive aspects about tank and allow bigger pulls with bosses dealing more damage ect.

My issue isn't the fact that tanks are too "op in dungeons keep it like that!" they are, but the fact you think a 1tank 3dps run (or 1healer 3dps) should be impossible in a casual dungeon, though I guess this is the forums and now because I take issue with thinking that dungeon healing/tanking shouldn't be as intense as savage content where I do think healing and Mitigation need to be very important to your success.

My main point is if I'm playing dps and either my tank or healer isn't great I know we can get through it still in a decent amount of time, but if you have both a bad healer and bad tank then enjoy single pulls and a 30minute duty, now if you depend on both players good, well enjoy long duties more often congrats.

Using dungeons as your example on why healers are in a bad spot will always be ridiculous because again you can do dungeons with 3dps 1healer, Dungeons are Currently a joke so why are we using it to prop up "healer's are useless", news flash all roles are pretty much useless in dungeon content, It's not designed to have intense gameplay whether you like it or not, if dungeons were designed to actually challenge players to the point where a full standard trinity comp was required then people would get walled off.

Acting like dungeons are super fun and intense for tanks and dps while it's only unfun for healers, it's really not it's actually... boring too, almost like the content itself was designed to be easy but, for some reason because healers are boring in dungeons that's a problem with healer design and not actually the dungeons itself.

Next we're going to complain that fates need the full on trinity system. Honestly the game should move away from a strict forced trinity system and should embrace more creativity in general instead of depending on it. (aka phantom jobs but for casual content have fun!)

[Supersnow845]

“My issue is that you think a 1T3D clear should be impossible”

Literally where did I say that. What I actually want is simply for a tank to not be so effective at healing that they are doing my job for me in a dungeon (or the trial, normal raid, alliance raid, savage raid, ultimate, take your pick tanks can replace healers in every level of content if you are competant enough). As strange as this sounds I’m the healer and I actually want to heal. A lot of the fun of being a healer is getting to actually heal. Sure I could make my job more tolerable by not ALSO having a garbage DPS rotation but at its core I want to be the one being the primary healer, is that so strange to understand. You can have tanks ASSIST healers not get walled by being a bad healer but the rank should never be doing healing as the primary aspect of the job

And this again circles back to my original point ALL CONTENT IN THIS GAME SHOULD BE FUN. If you are so willing to write off pieces of content and just go “it’s easy it’s bad get over it” then that’s a problem right then and there. However even in easy dungeons I still have fun with well designed jobs (read not healers and a few others) so it’s totally possible to have fun with content below your skill level. But the game has to actually allow it. The game functionally doesn’t allow healers to have fun in dungeons

And let’s take a step back from dungeons for a second, healers are boring in ALL content. Is there an arbitrary line for you where content is easy enough that healers are allowed to be boring? I don’t know about you but I’d like there to be nuance to all jobs at all levels of content

[Rithy255]

And let’s take a step back from dungeons for a second, healers are boring in ALL content. Is there an arbitrary line for you where content is easy enough that healers are allowed to be boring? I don’t know about you but I’d like there to be nuance to all jobs at all levels of content

No all jobs should be fun in all forms of content, if possible the problem is dungeons aren't currently meant to be designed around players of a high skill level, so I take issue with wanting to nerf tanks based off dungeon runs, despite that I do think we need tanks and healers tuned, personally i want tanks to have strong defensives but keep party utility aspects (And yes healing tools I know funny a paladin can contribute to healing.)

Dungeon content is not a only healer issue, I personally think SE wants it to be clearable so it shouldn't be intense enough. With what you've been saying that it's not fun for healers! applies to every job in that content. what would it take for you to be healer to be fun would be my issue because unlike savage or ultimate (or even ext) I don't think you should require healer players to be great, I can see some merit in reducing some pain points for dungeons like boring 1 button rotations and reducing tank survivability a bit (stuff like AOE damage for me as a tank player is also boring I literally take no damage from wall to walls as a tank).

Savage? ultimate? yes I think 0 healer clears are a Issue, but even then just "nerf tanks they do healers jobs" is such a backwards way of actually fixing healers, healers need to actually need to be able to use their full kit effectively this is done by tuning down tanks self survivability while adding more outgoing damage, this doesn't mean skills like clemency or even self/target heals on tanks need to be removed.

Ultimately though I don't like the Trinity system I think having a stricter Trinity system for these types of content does more harm then good, like I alluded to earlier I would much rather casual content have something similar to lost actions or phantom job system, rather then just having strict healer/tank roles, In harder content I understand they would likely want to keep balancing easy to manage though.

[Aravell]

You know, we actually had a point in this game's lifetime where the trinity functioned in dungeons, it was Stormblood.

If the tank was bad, aggro goes everywhere but a good healer can salvage the situation, DPS can also help peel for the healer by juggling mob aggro.
If the healer was bad, tanks couldn't sit in damage stance but could salvage the situation by using their defensive side of the kit, DPS can also help by burning down targets one-by-one to reduce pressure on the tank.
If the DPS were bad, the tank and healer can still ration out their resources to salvage the situation.

It was a pretty decent trinity game back then because every role had ways to take control of a situation that went bad while still needing to rely on each other. Tanks also weren't as squishy as people made them out to be, I soloed a few bosses on tank back in SB, the difference back then is that we could only do it from 20% HP max, nobody could solo a boss down from 90% no matter how good they were back then.

[Azurarok]

It seems to just come back to ShB removing aggro management and healer dps. We're kinda fighting over who gets to have fun because SE took away a toy from both healers and tanks and told us to start sharing what's left.

[Tint]

You know, we actually had a point in this game's lifetime where the trinity functioned in dungeons, it was Stormblood.

But Stormblood also marked the beginning of the tank power creep. As a DRK I could soak up entire tankbusters with TBN and suddenly in ShB all tanks could to that. And it got even worse with EW.

Back in the day I have learned to pre-cast my heals for tank busters, today that mechanic is entirely gone from healer gameplay. I throw in a Benison for good measure, but tanks deal with busters alone these days.

[ForsakenRoe]

I don't get why this is hard to understand that dungeons in general are just boring and easy and again you can clear on most comps.

It sure does matter both ways! I find it annoying that healers can make me using defensives feel invalid in bosses because they spam mit/shields/healing on me

If you nerfed tanks to the point where healers actually had to heal a lot in dungeons then they'd be melee dps lol

1: Why are we acting so defeatist about the 'fun' factor of dungeon content? Saying 'dungeons (and content of similar difficulty) aren't meant to be fun' is effectively saying 'most of the content of the game isn't meant to be fun'. Which, in a subscription based game, is a pretty ridiculous stance to have IMO. Rather than just giving up on that entire difficulty level of content, why are we not asking for it to be made more fun, given that there's, by my count, exactly 100 dungeons in the game now?

2: Next time you take a tankbuster in those dungeon bosses, check your HP bar. Even with no defensives active, you're taking only about half your Max HP. Whatever the Healer's doing to 'make your defensives feel invalid' isn't actually invalidating anything, because your defensives have been invalidated by the dungeon boss doing so little damage in the first place. Also, you say, and I quote, 'because they spam mit/shields/healing on me'. Perish the thought, that the Healer role would spam Healing on you!

3: Nah, we'd just have a more ARR-Stormblood paradigm again. Where Healers actually press healing GCDs occasionally, instead of pressing Krasis-Physis-Kerachole-Dyskrasia spam, and then ignoring the Tank's HP on every pack because 'oh it turns out the PLD can regen 1000p every time they press their 22s CD defensive, and also for 400p every time they spend Holy Spirit/Holy Circle, and also 400p every GCD in their burst combo, and also gets a 1000p shield when they press their 2min defensive (on top of it being 40% mit)'. And that's just PLD, WAR's even more ridiculous, as we're all aware.

If healers want more interesting gameplay give them more damage buttons and things to do, you can likely get away with reducing some defensive aspects about tank and allow bigger pulls with bosses dealing more damage ect.

It's not designed to have intense gameplay whether you like it or not, if dungeons were designed to actually challenge players to the point where a full standard trinity comp was required then people would get walled off.

Next we're going to complain that fates need the full on trinity system.

1: Yeh, maybe you could do that, and it'd make dungeons a bit more fun. But nerfing tank defensives means incurring the anger of the tank mains who'd have their own 'fun' infringed on, and bigger pulls/more damage would work only for certain gear levels, and outgearing the dungeon (eg if you're a Savage player) means the difficulty would disappear again, so it's a very ephemeral 'increase in fun', it doesn't last

2: This assertion (people would get walled if the challenge 'required' a correct trinity comp) A: contradicts evidence of how ARR/HW/SB dungeons played out, and B: contradicts point 1 (where you say that 'you can likely get away with making bosses do more damage'). If you make bosses do more damage, it'd enforce the Trinity comp more (until you outgear it, as mentioned above)

3: IDK if you noticed, but some Fates DO need a Tank and a Healer (Go Go Gorgimera, the turtle one in Forelands, etc.) They're special exceptions though. If you mean regular fates like 'kill a bunch of ladybugs' then you're fighting a strawman

But Stormblood also marked the beginning of the tank power creep. As a DRK I could soak up entire tankbusters with TBN and suddenly in ShB all tanks could to that. And it got even worse with EW.

You could, but you couldn't restore your HP nearly as effectively against bosses, in between those TBNs (on trash is another topic, Dark Arts>Abyssal Drain was a little silly (but still not as silly as Bloodwhetting is now)). Plus, you wouldn't be able to do the current level of damage AND be as surviveable as you currently are, as Grit penalized your damage by 20% while it was active. You had to choose if you wanted to be more defensive, or more offensive, but now we get both at the same time.

A WAR had to choose, do they want to restore their own HP with Inner Beast and Equilibrium, at the cost of being in Defiance (-25% damage unless they use Unchained), or be in Deliverance for Fell Cleave damage (5% more damage, plus bonus crit rate based on gauge). Now, there isn't a choice to make, they get the tankiness (via the Tank Mastery Trait), the selfsustain AND the damage, all at once.