Raiders, why do you consider raiding just not memory games ?

[Kohashi]

No, it's not. Memorization is only part of it. There's also adaptation, thinking, planning, etc

Activities that boil down to remembering the same thing exactly without requiring any improvisation or actual thinking is ultimately boring.

And that's the problem with ffxiv. They dont know how to design systems (classes, encounters, etc) that aren't "follow a rigid plan with a handful of randomized elements here and there".

Yes, based on previous experiences and feedback.

The argument you have it's an old song people keep spewing and which is also highly disingenuous. You do realize somebody has to code the encounter yes? You realize there is no true RNG in a controlled system yes? It's absolutely impossible to have a great/infinite number of variations for every single mechanic yes?

If you look at the game since its creation, ARR, every single encounter had limited variations. This game NEVER had a lot of variation, and it will most likely NEVER have them. If the devs wanted to provide that (aside from being impossible) they would have done it already in 11 years.

Even if they sink in the time and money to make 10 variations for every single mechanic in this game there will be a point where people will master all and will end up at the same roadblock.

Anyway, please continue..

[Mawlzy]

In that regard, FFXIV has gone the McDonaldization route (cool write up about that here) - by reducing raiding to essentially clicking the right button at the right time it eliminates a lot of the friction raiding can produce. But at the same time, it also eliminates some excitement.
Its part of the reason why I find PVP so much more exciting than raiding nowadays. It tests me as a player engaging with the games systems, not me as a player memorizing a longer pattern.

Exactly the same. Dynamic situations are far more interesting to me than rote memorization and button pressing.

[KillaKilala]

Yes, based on previous experiences and feedback.

The argument you have it's an old song people keep spewing and which is also highly disingenuous. You do realize somebody has to code the encounter yes? You realize there is no true RNG in a controlled system yes? It's absolutely impossible to have a great/infinite number of variations for every single mechanic yes?

If you look at the game since its creation, ARR, every single encounter had limited variations. This game NEVER had a lot of variation, and it will most likely NEVER have them. If the devs wanted to provide that (aside from being impossible) they would have done it already in 11 years.

Even if they sink in the time and money to make 10 variations for every single mechanic in this game there will be a point where people will master all and will end up at the same roadblock.

Anyway, please continue..

Oh yeah absolutely impossible… yet somehow WoW does that, many other games do. You don’t need a gazillion variations to make the encounter dynamic, you need a system that actually interacts with players and creates a threat, a system that isn’t just a striking dummy with mechanics. Anyway, please continue..
Devs can absolutely do more dynamic encounters but I bet they’re thinking something like “what’s the point of making the fights more dynamic if players will learn to adapt anyway”. They’ve said something similar when they’ve decided to homogenise the dungeons something like”we’ve decided to remove the optional routes from the dungeons because players always go one optimal route anyway”. But that just wasn’t true, every time I went to the old thousand maws of toto-rak it was a complete mess and I loved it
One thing I don’t understand though is why they’re trying to protect players from the every smallest threat? When games like dark souls and Elden ring exist and they’re very popular even among casuals

[Valence]

By own admission, you don't even play this game, why do you care how people who do spend their time doing it? You are one of those people who constantly get told to "mind your own business", aren't you?

I play it, have raided for quite a while, and share their view on what raiding feels like (minus the part on what motivates XIV raiders to raid).
Now you're gonna ask me why I continue raiding then, well, I just retired I suppose. Took me long enough I guess, I'm not the brightest bulb when it's about dropping engagement into something.

[Kohashi]

you need a system that actually interacts with players and creates a threat, a system that isn’t just a striking dummy with mechanics. Anyway, please continue..

Sure thing.

Even one of the hardest raids in WoW (https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Lei...actics)#Guides ), still has scripted mechanics that you need to understand and execute.

FF14 and WoW tackle the same issue (the dance) differently but it still exists. Also, FF14 raids do interact with players where a player will be targeted with a mechanic which they need to resolve. The mechanics are either solo or light parties.

Example: EE2, Mustard Bomb from M4s, M1s: One two Paw, Mouser 1 and 2, Raining Cats, M2s: Splash of Venom, Second Beat, Third beat, Poison sting. M3s: Octomboom Dive, Barbarous Barrage, Chained deathmatch, Final Fuse down...

I think you get the idea, anyway.......

[Red-thunder]

By own admission, you don't even play this game, why do you care how people who do spend their time doing it? You are one of those people who constantly get told to "mind your own business", aren't you?

Because you're obviously here to defend FF14 raiding as somehow requiring a big brain and in the process exposes yourself as not actually understanding how to raid.

Like seriously this is just so hilarious:

"Because just the act of "knowing" the fight is not sufficient for clearing it, on a pure mechanical level. The ability to perform the proper job rotation while moving and resolving mechanics is non-trivial compared to "flipping and picking cards", which is the standard action for playing a "pure" memory game like "concentration"."

You treat mechanics and rotations as separate. That is all I need to know that you haven't actually played the real game.

FF14 raids are a dance. The mechanics and optimal rotation in every fight is part of the same choreography. You don't memorize "Chariot = out, oh I also need to dump some light stacks here."

You memorize "1, 2, Out, TCJ, T, C, J, go back in to rear, 3, 1, 2, go to flank, 4, 1, go to healer 2 who always goes near rear, 2, 3, etc."

That's how you play the game. The only exceptions are legitimately random fights like Nael phase or legitimately random jobs like old BLM. Anything else and you're playing it wrong.

Once you reach this level this game becomes dull within one tier. I suppose maybe to mediocre players who never reach this level it will be fun forever since they never actually see through the Matrix, so to speak. Everything in this game is repetitive and stale.

[Red-thunder]

Actually idk why I even responded to Allen lmao. He has no refutation and is just going to come back with "PLAY ANOTHER GAME" like generic NPC #471984

[KillaKilala]

Sure thing.

Even one of the hardest raids in WoW (https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Lei...actics)#Guides ), still has scripted mechanics that you need to understand and execute.

FF14 and WoW tackle the same issue (the dance) differently but it still exists. Also, FF14 raids do interact with players where a player will be targeted with a mechanic which they need to resolve. The mechanics are either solo or light parties.

Example: EE2, Mustard Bomb from M4s, M1s: One two Paw, Mouser 1 and 2, Raining Cats, M2s: Splash of Venom, Second Beat, Third beat, Poison sting. M3s: Octomboom Dive, Barbarous Barrage, Chained deathmatch, Final Fuse down...

I think you get the idea, anyway.......

I didn’t play wow that much but can talk about the dungeons. First of all you have multiple routes in every dungeon and can sometimes skip rooms and bosses if you don’t need their loot. You can decide how much enemies you want to pull, who takes aggro, who do what. The enemies are dungeons and if you die you lose exp points and have to run back to the dungeon which you don’t want to so you fight for your life, while if xiv you just restart and this bullshit’s considered QoL, it’s not it just makes me to not care about the mechanics. You have locked rooms and to open them you need to farm keys, or buy them or ask other players to open these doors for you. You can decide how much people you wanna go with, you can even clear some rooms solo even if you’re low level. None of this is scripted these are real interactions when you aren’t forced to do anything, when you can decide on your own how you want to clear the dungeon.

[PyurBlue]

The argument you have it's an old song people keep spewing and which is also highly disingenuous. You do realize somebody has to code the encounter yes? You realize there is no true RNG in a controlled system yes? It's absolutely impossible to have a great/infinite number of variations for every single mechanic yes?

Are you saying this in the absolute sense, because if so it's actually very easy to have infinite variation. Many parameters can be randomized from cast time to size of an AoE to the inclusion or exclusion of status effects, and more. In reality there will be some limitations to work within in FF14 specifically, but randomization is very much possible.

I don't disagree that the devs don't want to do this, but I really want to make them change their minds. Content in FF14 goes stale so fast in part because it's totally static. My ideal is to learn my class and use the skills I've learned to overcome dynamic challenges rather than having to memorize a script for every encounter. Unfortunately static content is very much baked into the FF14 design process so getting what I want will probably require some kind of overhaul, but knowing that I'd still rather see the shift in content design. Memorization doesn't have longevity.

[Sunhwapark]

I treat them like sheets of music.
Once you learn it and do it enough times you can perform without needing to refer to the sheet. I suppose variation could be seen in the form of being able to recover from mishaps and human error related stuff.