Raiders, why do you consider raiding just not memory games ?

[NaoSen]

This is not a troll post, let me get that out of the way, I just have multiple discussion/debate/argument (Depending on the persons viewpoint) on this.

My raiding firsthand experience only goes as high as knowing the mechanics well of DT EX3 as SMN, and having only just cleared P4S with echo. (I didn't bother trying to farm EX3 as my PF experience was a nightmare) however my friends who I chat with often range from savage clear to all ultimate's cleared to elitists.

From my POV there is the plan (Be it video or written), that plan has step by step instructions of what to do (Follow the instructions, do not panic, do your job.), if the group is a static as they become familiar with each step of the plan they progress further and further until clear and then faster and faster until its just farmable.

From personal experience it's been once a phase has been cleared the first time generally the groups failure rate there drops by over half.

All this together makes, from my perspective, being a good raider (Assuming guides exist), the ability to follow a set of instructions by someone else while doing your rotation, which in itself is also defined by others. There is very little if any need to adjust on the fly beyond what has already been defined as possible to happen.

I am not saying that this makes raiding easy, although it seems to go from hard to easy once the instructions become more natural.

If it is that way, it feels like it's just a matter of time before 8 players could walk into an instance with a mod, press play and they clear.

Or am I wrong about this?

[Kohashi]

I am not sure what point you are trying to make because memory and repetition are at the base of how humans function. Everything is about memory and remembering how to do things. From walking to learning how to talk, write, etc..
So, what's the point here again?

[Ajisaii]

being able to follow a guide doesn't make you a good raider

[YumieYumiki]

I am not sure what point you are trying to make because memory and repetition are at the base of how humans function. Everything is about memory and remembering how to do things. From walking to learning how to talk, write, etc..

No, it's not. Memorization is only part of it. There's also adaptation, thinking, planning, etc

Activities that boil down to remembering the same thing exactly without requiring any improvisation or actual thinking is ultimately boring.

And that's the problem with ffxiv. They dont know how to design systems (classes, encounters, etc) that aren't "follow a rigid plan with a handful of randomized elements here and there".

[Exmo]

To some extent raids are memory games when you've gotten to the point you've described. My favorite part comes before that. I raid blind and I love figuring out mechanics and devising strategies. But once you have the strategy basically sealed, it's a case of remaining focused and enacting plans one after the other while maintaining uptime. If there was all the time in the world for a mechanic, it would simply be a memory game, but there's a little more going on.

[NaoSen]

I am not sure what point you are trying to make because memory and repetition are at the base of how humans function. Everything is about memory and remembering how to do things. From walking to learning how to talk, write, etc..
So, what's the point here again?

You get content which requires a person to adjust strategy on the fly, that while "Ïf this happens this is how you should deal with it" is a thing, there is no knowledge that it would happen at all.

Take deep dungeons for example, certain mobs start appearing at certain floors and there is information on what to be careful of, however the floor layout changes, traps might spring more onto you, one might respawn and roam into you, you may or may not have poms available to you there are a large number of random factors involved.

One could say this is where there is a huge failing in partyfinder, a person is so busy trying to follow the instruction set they were given that they do not think or adapt, thus you can end up with a group that clears 90% of the time not clearing at all because of a single person changing that doesnt even have to be incompetant, just be used to a different instruction set.

My point being trying to see if the whole "It's following a set of instructions", is accurate or not for the subject of raid discussion or pf's failings which seem to be potentially directly affected by it being that way,

[Red-thunder]

They are and it's ultra boring.

Raiders will cope and cope but it gets extremely boring after prog. Nowadays with how much they reuse mechanics it already becomes boring during prog.

I had more fun soloing PotD and HoH than clearing DSR. You grinded the phases you've already seen again and again to get to 20 seconds of fun (your prog point). It's terrible gameplay.

DRS was fun because of the chaos but only during clear but thank God you got the mount on first clear. Criterion Savage was only fun for a few hours and became a chore.

The worst part is nowadays statics also make raiding a literal job. You can barely find any competent (week 1 clear) one who doesn't insist on watching a million VODs so they know that the boss does a 27.72 degree twirl at 45:39 on hour 1 before even going in. Doing homework before you do the actual homework.

Optimization is even worse now too. It used to be OK during Stormblood, actually kind of fun, because jobs aren't so braindead and there was something new to always think about to optimize your job. Now optimization = farming crits for 30000 hours.

Lmao raiding is terrible gameplay. Don't let raiders' cope convince you otherwise.

[ovIm]

No, it's not. Memorization is only part of it. There's also adaptation, thinking, planning, etc

Activities that boil down to remembering the same thing exactly without requiring any improvisation or actual thinking is ultimately boring.

And that's the problem with ffxiv. They dont know how to design systems (classes, encounters, etc) that aren't "follow a rigid plan with a handful of randomized elements here and there".

In that regard, FFXIV has gone the McDonaldization route (cool write up about that here) - by reducing raiding to essentially clicking the right button at the right time it eliminates a lot of the friction raiding can produce. But at the same time, it also eliminates some excitement.
Its part of the reason why I find PVP so much more exciting than raiding nowadays. It tests me as a player engaging with the games systems, not me as a player memorizing a longer pattern.

[Red-thunder]

My point being trying to see if the whole "It's following a set of instructions", is accurate or not

It's accurate in most modern raids because of the ultra scripted nature and the insane reliance on body checks.

UCOB is actually where you see a glimpse of true skill expression. A good team and good healers can get you to limp to a clear with 20+ deaths (probably even more than that these days). On patch you could do that with around 4-5 deaths.

Recovery is a genuine skill back then. That's just one of the many things lost to history.

[Jeeqbit]

I am not saying that this makes raiding easy, although it seems to go from hard to easy once the instructions become more natural.

The concept of all fights in this game, for the most part, is that it's a script. It's hard only until you learn the script and get used to it. Then you learn it by heart like a dance, a song or a play and it becomes muscle memory. That is why we say that we "learn the fight" or "know the fight".

After clearing, it's always been common for people to suddenly declare it's easy. It's just how it is. Everything is easy once you're used to it - but won't be for many people doing it for the first times.

Personally, I enjoy it this way. I enjoy the fights, I enjoy that it allows me to become good at them and optimize in them.

It does make them boring if you farm them for too many months after they release though. So it's wise to stop at some point so you don't burn out, and try some other content instead. That's true for dungeons as well.

Personally, I've been solving the repetition by simply changing job so that I'm tackling it from a different role / angle.

it feels like it's just a matter of time before 8 players could walk into an instance with a mod, press play and they clear.

That already has happened. And has for a very long time. The majority of players don't go this far, but it's definitely a thing.