Raiders, why do you consider raiding just not memory games ?

[NaoSen]

This is not a troll post, let me get that out of the way, I just have multiple discussion/debate/argument (Depending on the persons viewpoint) on this.

My raiding firsthand experience only goes as high as knowing the mechanics well of DT EX3 as SMN, and having only just cleared P4S with echo. (I didn't bother trying to farm EX3 as my PF experience was a nightmare) however my friends who I chat with often range from savage clear to all ultimate's cleared to elitists.

From my POV there is the plan (Be it video or written), that plan has step by step instructions of what to do (Follow the instructions, do not panic, do your job.), if the group is a static as they become familiar with each step of the plan they progress further and further until clear and then faster and faster until its just farmable.

From personal experience it's been once a phase has been cleared the first time generally the groups failure rate there drops by over half.

All this together makes, from my perspective, being a good raider (Assuming guides exist), the ability to follow a set of instructions by someone else while doing your rotation, which in itself is also defined by others. There is very little if any need to adjust on the fly beyond what has already been defined as possible to happen.

I am not saying that this makes raiding easy, although it seems to go from hard to easy once the instructions become more natural.

If it is that way, it feels like it's just a matter of time before 8 players could walk into an instance with a mod, press play and they clear.

Or am I wrong about this?

[Kohashi]

I am not sure what point you are trying to make because memory and repetition are at the base of how humans function. Everything is about memory and remembering how to do things. From walking to learning how to talk, write, etc..
So, what's the point here again?

[NaoSen]

I am not sure what point you are trying to make because memory and repetition are at the base of how humans function. Everything is about memory and remembering how to do things. From walking to learning how to talk, write, etc..
So, what's the point here again?

You get content which requires a person to adjust strategy on the fly, that while "Ïf this happens this is how you should deal with it" is a thing, there is no knowledge that it would happen at all.

Take deep dungeons for example, certain mobs start appearing at certain floors and there is information on what to be careful of, however the floor layout changes, traps might spring more onto you, one might respawn and roam into you, you may or may not have poms available to you there are a large number of random factors involved.

One could say this is where there is a huge failing in partyfinder, a person is so busy trying to follow the instruction set they were given that they do not think or adapt, thus you can end up with a group that clears 90% of the time not clearing at all because of a single person changing that doesnt even have to be incompetant, just be used to a different instruction set.

My point being trying to see if the whole "It's following a set of instructions", is accurate or not for the subject of raid discussion or pf's failings which seem to be potentially directly affected by it being that way,

[Ajisaii]

being able to follow a guide doesn't make you a good raider

[Apopopo]

being able to follow a guide doesn't make you a good raider

No, but being able to follow a guide and press your buttons does.

[YumieYumiki]

I am not sure what point you are trying to make because memory and repetition are at the base of how humans function. Everything is about memory and remembering how to do things. From walking to learning how to talk, write, etc..

No, it's not. Memorization is only part of it. There's also adaptation, thinking, planning, etc

Activities that boil down to remembering the same thing exactly without requiring any improvisation or actual thinking is ultimately boring.

And that's the problem with ffxiv. They dont know how to design systems (classes, encounters, etc) that aren't "follow a rigid plan with a handful of randomized elements here and there".

[ovIm]

No, it's not. Memorization is only part of it. There's also adaptation, thinking, planning, etc

Activities that boil down to remembering the same thing exactly without requiring any improvisation or actual thinking is ultimately boring.

And that's the problem with ffxiv. They dont know how to design systems (classes, encounters, etc) that aren't "follow a rigid plan with a handful of randomized elements here and there".

In that regard, FFXIV has gone the McDonaldization route (cool write up about that here) - by reducing raiding to essentially clicking the right button at the right time it eliminates a lot of the friction raiding can produce. But at the same time, it also eliminates some excitement.
Its part of the reason why I find PVP so much more exciting than raiding nowadays. It tests me as a player engaging with the games systems, not me as a player memorizing a longer pattern.

[Mawlzy]

In that regard, FFXIV has gone the McDonaldization route (cool write up about that here) - by reducing raiding to essentially clicking the right button at the right time it eliminates a lot of the friction raiding can produce. But at the same time, it also eliminates some excitement.
Its part of the reason why I find PVP so much more exciting than raiding nowadays. It tests me as a player engaging with the games systems, not me as a player memorizing a longer pattern.

Exactly the same. Dynamic situations are far more interesting to me than rote memorization and button pressing.

[Kohashi]

No, it's not. Memorization is only part of it. There's also adaptation, thinking, planning, etc

Activities that boil down to remembering the same thing exactly without requiring any improvisation or actual thinking is ultimately boring.

And that's the problem with ffxiv. They dont know how to design systems (classes, encounters, etc) that aren't "follow a rigid plan with a handful of randomized elements here and there".

Yes, based on previous experiences and feedback.

The argument you have it's an old song people keep spewing and which is also highly disingenuous. You do realize somebody has to code the encounter yes? You realize there is no true RNG in a controlled system yes? It's absolutely impossible to have a great/infinite number of variations for every single mechanic yes?

If you look at the game since its creation, ARR, every single encounter had limited variations. This game NEVER had a lot of variation, and it will most likely NEVER have them. If the devs wanted to provide that (aside from being impossible) they would have done it already in 11 years.

Even if they sink in the time and money to make 10 variations for every single mechanic in this game there will be a point where people will master all and will end up at the same roadblock.

Anyway, please continue..

[KillaKilala]

Yes, based on previous experiences and feedback.

The argument you have it's an old song people keep spewing and which is also highly disingenuous. You do realize somebody has to code the encounter yes? You realize there is no true RNG in a controlled system yes? It's absolutely impossible to have a great/infinite number of variations for every single mechanic yes?

If you look at the game since its creation, ARR, every single encounter had limited variations. This game NEVER had a lot of variation, and it will most likely NEVER have them. If the devs wanted to provide that (aside from being impossible) they would have done it already in 11 years.

Even if they sink in the time and money to make 10 variations for every single mechanic in this game there will be a point where people will master all and will end up at the same roadblock.

Anyway, please continue..

Oh yeah absolutely impossible… yet somehow WoW does that, many other games do. You don’t need a gazillion variations to make the encounter dynamic, you need a system that actually interacts with players and creates a threat, a system that isn’t just a striking dummy with mechanics. Anyway, please continue..
Devs can absolutely do more dynamic encounters but I bet they’re thinking something like “what’s the point of making the fights more dynamic if players will learn to adapt anyway”. They’ve said something similar when they’ve decided to homogenise the dungeons something like”we’ve decided to remove the optional routes from the dungeons because players always go one optimal route anyway”. But that just wasn’t true, every time I went to the old thousand maws of toto-rak it was a complete mess and I loved it
One thing I don’t understand though is why they’re trying to protect players from the every smallest threat? When games like dark souls and Elden ring exist and they’re very popular even among casuals