Raiders, why do you consider raiding just not memory games ?

[Red-thunder]

In that regard, FFXIV has gone the McDonaldization route (cool write up about that here) - by reducing raiding to essentially clicking the right button at the right time it eliminates a lot of the friction raiding can produce. But at the same time, it also eliminates some excitement.
Its part of the reason why I find PVP so much more exciting than raiding nowadays. It tests me as a player engaging with the games systems, not me as a player memorizing a longer pattern.

Well, too bad Crystalline Conflict does not reward skill expression as much as Feast.

The Feast was peak PvP gameplay. CC is a pale imitation. Better for casual players but so much worse at the top end.

[Valence]

Yes, I do consider them purely a memory game in XIV,. It's macdonaldized to the extreme where you follow the raidplan, and everything is about execution so that it can be done as seamlessly as possible in PF. Strats are discussed beforehand, either in a static during homework, or from guidemakers in the case of PF/static in general.
The only thing that makes me say that it's 99% memory is because there is technically 1% if one is totally blind progging a fight, and has to figure the solution to the puzzle first (which is what the guides do for you otherwise).

[Jeeqbit]

thing that makes me say that it's 99% memory is because there is technically 1% if one is totally blind progging a fight, and has to figure the solution to the puzzle first (which is what the guides do for you otherwise).

Also, blind progging to figure out mechanics now is often just recording your gameplay, and watching it back in slow motion so that you can see:
"oh, that's the donut AoE."
"oh, it's doing a spread there."
"oh, that mechanic means a stack"
"oh, that applies a status effect vuln so we have to be separated"
etc.

So a guide just stops you wasting your time wiping for hours doing the slow motion playback to discover what is the stack, spread, etc.

[Red-thunder]

Also, blind progging to figure out mechanics now is often just recording your gameplay, and watching it back in slow motion so that you can see:
"oh, that's the donut AoE."
"oh, it's doing a spread there."
"oh, that mechanic means a stack"
"oh, that applies a status effect vuln so we have to be separated"
etc.

So a guide just stops you wasting your time wiping for hours doing the slow motion playback to discover what is the stack, spread, etc.

Yes. People think it's a miracle cure-all but blind prog is only fun for one tier.

Plus modern blind prog is basically non-blind with how much they reuse ideas and mechanics.

[Valence]

Well, too bad Crystalline Conflict does not reward skill expression as much as Feast.

The Feast was peak PvP gameplay. CC is a pale imitation. Better for casual players but so much worse at the top end.

Not gonna lie, I was agreeing fully with you until this. I'm a staunch believer that Feast had high floor and low skill ceiling comparatively. Feast was extremely scripted if anything.

[Zakuyia]

To be honest raiding is a memory game op. Its why ppl tell you over time youll build muscle memory. When I run m2s reclear sometimes ill act on m2s muscle memory in m3s its kinda annoying it happens but muscle memory is a thing.

[Red-thunder]

Not gonna lie, I was agreeing fully with you until this. I'm a staunch believer that Feast had high floor and low skill ceiling comparatively. Feast was extremely scripted if anything.

Maybe we have different ways of judging difficulty or skill expression. I find that it is much more difficult to carry bad players in CC. Whereas in Feast it's night and day. In a way that's also because the Feast community is smaller.

I would agree that Feast was more scripted with the reliance on precise 30s bursts. Theoretically CC is also that but even in t100 matches there's barely any coordination (I haven't touched it after mid EW though) and often resembled a bunch of monkeys running around haplessly. The lack of a countdown quick chat option really hurt CC for me.

Maybe theoretically CC has a far higher skill ceiling. I can 100% buy that. But in practice the gameplay felt like Gold Feast matches in Crystal.

[Gurgeh]

I think it makes 'enjoyable' raiding harder.
EX3 Ice problems as far as I can see are mostly 'because' people don't think. They JUST replay instructions from memory, and now a multiple mechanics that are not really supposed to be zero margin body checks, now become such. "I'm second group outer north bridge, and goddamit I'm going!"
When actually, most of the successful runs I saw were when someone had to adapt 'and they did'. But if people are only prepped to 'must go south' well then there is a 'lot' less chance of people being able to use the adequate but one chance to adjust.
ICE should have been:
"Either your crossing to left or to right".
"Take which ever bridge is FREE first, but IF YOUR FIRST GROUP GO *NOW*"
"If the another bridge comes free take that'
Instead it's wipe after wipe because
-"I'm going north!"...
-at least once person makes a mistake
-assuming we don't already have 2 KOs there is now a delay and kerfuffle (like two people trying to squeeze past each other in a corridor)
-and now a simple matter of position crystal tethers screws up because of the lost time.
...
Oh and that stack and tether that's coming up? That's now a 4 man zero margin for adjustment body check, because only your Meles and tanks know what's going on, and one of those 'did' KO earlier, maybe two of them.

[Kandraxx]

This whole game is braindead memorization, both your hardcoded rotation wheres only one logical button to press at a time and the boss scripts. Add to that that the player interaction in this game is beyond insufferable and you'll understand why someone would rather buy a clear on a boosting site and spend the hours of his life on something meaningful.

There's not even a "getting better at the game" here.

[Red-thunder]

This whole game is braindead memorization, both your hardcoded rotation wheres only one logical button to press at a time and the boss scripts. Add to that that the player interaction in this game is beyond insufferable and you'll understand why someone would rather buy a clear on a boosting site and spend the hours of his life on something meaningful.

There's not even a "getting better at the game" here.

I'm glad people keep buying boosts so they can show off to people who know they bought boosts and get clowned on. The eternal cycle... Keeps me fed.