Pld buff or War nerf in 1.22?

[Dawiichan]

All that does is shift the scale in the other direction. Which then limits the choice for tank...again.

I know the approach you're going for. And it has failed. Fodder tank vs boss tank doesn't work. Again, tank classes should be performing similarly so that it's a matter of who is online when the group is getting ready, not what job you happen to be at the time invites start going out.

There's no point in having two similar tanks. It destroys the point of having two classes. However it's quite obvious that warrior has turned into a damaging tank while PLD is supposed to be a supportive/sustainable tank. Though if you have a supportive/sustainable tank there is no point to it if you need the same amount of support as a damaging tank.

[Duelle]

There's no point in having two similar tanks.

Taking damage when getting hit is part of being a tank. It's in the job description.

It destroys the point of having two classes.

False. Gameplay, gearing and abilities make them quite different. This is the reason why WoW, Rift and Lineage II have multiple tank classes. WoW is going to have five (5) come next expansion. All five get hit and have their own slew of abilities for mitigation/damage/utility.

Again, if you're being influenced by the blood vs blink tank thing, get it out of your head. All it does is cloud your judgement. There is MUCH more to tank design and play than whether you're getting hit or blinking damage away.

[Rydin]

Taking damage when getting hit is part of being a tank. It's in the job description.
False. Gameplay, gearing and abilities make them quite different. This is the reason why WoW, Rift and Lineage II have multiple tank classes. WoW is going to have five (5) come next expansion. All five get hit and have their own slew of abilities for mitigation/damage/utility.

Again, if you're being influenced by the blood vs blink tank thing, get it out of your head. All it does is cloud your judgement.

Well I would be fine with HP vs Shield abilities if Shield abilities were more viable...
But at this point.. either HP or parry by itself would trump shield abilities

[Volsung]

Taking damage when getting hit is part of being a tank. It's in the job description.
False. Gameplay, gearing and abilities make them quite different. This is the reason why WoW, Rift and Lineage II have multiple tank classes. WoW is going to have five (5) come next expansion. All five get hit and have their own slew of abilities for mitigation/damage/utility.

Again, if you're being influenced by the blood vs blink tank thing, get it out of your head. All it does is cloud your judgement. There is MUCH more to tank design and play than whether you're getting hit or blinking damage away.

This holds.... IF they're balanced. They currently are not.

[Duelle]

This holds.... IF they're balanced. They currently are not.

So we're in agreement that WAR and PLD should be balanced to perform at a similar level instead of making one preferable over the other.

Well I would be fine with HP vs Shield abilities if Shield abilities were more viable...

Before anything, I would make shield block rating and block value (as in, threashold of damage reduction when blocking damage with a shield) scale with a stat for PLD. Like...give PLD the trait Ease of Wield, which causes VIT and STR to contribute to shield block rating and block value. What I'm not sure of is if it should be by an amount less than the actual Shield Block stat found in gear (kind of like a supplemental boost) or maybe equal to the Shield Block stat.

As far as damage/enmity output, I'd first give PLDs the ability to counter attack but with their shield hand. Minimal damage (based on block value of the shield), but a good chunk of enmity. It wouldn't do much on the DPS end, but it would be a start.

[Rydin]

So we're in agreement that WAR and PLD should be balanced to perform at a similar level instead of making one preferable over the other.
Before anything, I would make shield block rating and block value (as in, threashold of damage reduction when blocking damage with a shield) scale with a stat for PLD. Like...give PLD the trait Ease of Wield, which causes VIT and STR to contribute to shield block rating and block value. What I'm not sure of is if it should be by an amount less than the actual Shield Block stat found in gear (kind of like a supplemental boost) or maybe equal to the Shield Block stat.

or.....
And this is going to blow people's minds...
Take the stupid ass Dlvl out of every equation...
If you want our characters to block less against higher level MOBs.. then give them higher stats
Dlvl is lazy mans balance...
The Devs do this so they can add new gear that is better than the gear we have now and it doesn't make you OP...
but all it ends up doing is devaluing every other stat in the game....
If you never block on Primals outside of Aegis Boon... then whats the point of having a better shield?

But ranting aside.... I do actually like your idea about the PLD trait... that would definitely help... but as long as Dlvl is there, no matter what you do, PLDs wont block higher level MOBs

[Duelle]

Take the stupid ass Dlvl out of every equation...
If you want our characters to block less against higher level MOBs.. then give them higher stats
Dlvl is lazy mans balance...

Ugh, so they tossed in borked level correction. Guess Matsui didn't learn his lesson from FFXI.

But ranting aside. I do actually like your idea about the PLD trait. that would definitely help. but as long as Dlvl is there, no matter what you do, PLDs wont block higher level MOBs

Heh, now I'm gonna have to refer to WoW, as that was the only game I tanked in where level correction didn't screw you over. Basically, all bosses had their own level bracket, known as Skull Level. This made them instantly 3 levels higher than you, so at most you had to make sure you had enough stats where you could reliably hit/damage a mob three levels higher than you.

I haven't done the high level stuff, but how much higher level are we talking about here? I mean, if the cap is 50 and Ifrit is lv65 then I can see the problem. Things like procs are obviously going to be at a disadvantage, which means that indeed, PLD is screwed by level correction and I would agree that shield block chance should not be affected by level correction. Perhaps the threshold should also be excluded from level correction. Otherwise you'd run into the problem of blocking but your damage mitigated by shields being floored because of level correction.

[Zumi]

If they are going to have 2 different tanks in FFXIV then they need to be balanced, hp, damage done, damage mitigation, cooldowns. Currently they are not balanced at all. WoW has 4 different tanks, pladain, war, dk, druid. They all preform pretty similarly but what makes them different is there their attacks abilities, rotation, different buffs, debuffs they bring.

Classes can play differently which is the difference but still need to be balanced performance wise or one tank will always be preferred.

[Duelle]

If they are going to have 2 different tanks in FFXIV then they need to be balanced, hp, damage done, damage mitigation, cooldowns. Currently they are not balanced at all. WoW has 4 different tanks, pladain, war, dk, druid. They all preform pretty similarly but what makes them different is there their attacks abilities, rotation, different buffs, debuffs they bring.

Classes can play differently which is the difference but still need to be balanced performance wise or one tank will always be preferred.

Agreed. You can have more than one tank class, but they have to be balanced so that all are acceptable in groups. Warrior and Paladin are sword and board, Druid is super high defense and HP with some active mitigation spells, and Death Knights are part drain tank part active mitigation. They all have high armor ratings and none is truly deficient.

[Rydin]

Ugh, so they tossed in borked level correction. Guess Matsui didn't learn his lesson from FFXI.
Heh, now I'm gonna have to refer to WoW, as that was the only game I tanked in where level correction didn't screw you over. Basically, all bosses had their own level bracket, known as Skull Level. This made them instantly 3 levels higher than you, so at most you had to make sure you had enough stats where you could reliably hit/damage a mob three levels higher than you.

I haven't done the high level stuff, but how much higher level are we talking about here? I mean, if the cap is 50 and Ifrit is lv65 then I can see the problem. Things like procs are obviously going to be at a disadvantage, which means that indeed, PLD is screwed by level correction and I would agree that shield block chance should not be affected by level correction. Perhaps the threshold should also be excluded from level correction. Otherwise you'd run into the problem of blocking but your damage mitigated by shields being floored because of level correction.

I think Ifrit is the equivalent to Lvl 58... if I recall