Pld buff or War nerf in 1.22?

[Duelle]

There's no point in having two similar tanks.

Taking damage when getting hit is part of being a tank. It's in the job description.

It destroys the point of having two classes.

False. Gameplay, gearing and abilities make them quite different. This is the reason why WoW, Rift and Lineage II have multiple tank classes. WoW is going to have five (5) come next expansion. All five get hit and have their own slew of abilities for mitigation/damage/utility.

Again, if you're being influenced by the blood vs blink tank thing, get it out of your head. All it does is cloud your judgement. There is MUCH more to tank design and play than whether you're getting hit or blinking damage away.

[Rydin]

Taking damage when getting hit is part of being a tank. It's in the job description.
False. Gameplay, gearing and abilities make them quite different. This is the reason why WoW, Rift and Lineage II have multiple tank classes. WoW is going to have five (5) come next expansion. All five get hit and have their own slew of abilities for mitigation/damage/utility.

Again, if you're being influenced by the blood vs blink tank thing, get it out of your head. All it does is cloud your judgement.

Well I would be fine with HP vs Shield abilities if Shield abilities were more viable...
But at this point.. either HP or parry by itself would trump shield abilities

[Volsung]

Taking damage when getting hit is part of being a tank. It's in the job description.
False. Gameplay, gearing and abilities make them quite different. This is the reason why WoW, Rift and Lineage II have multiple tank classes. WoW is going to have five (5) come next expansion. All five get hit and have their own slew of abilities for mitigation/damage/utility.

Again, if you're being influenced by the blood vs blink tank thing, get it out of your head. All it does is cloud your judgement. There is MUCH more to tank design and play than whether you're getting hit or blinking damage away.

This holds.... IF they're balanced. They currently are not.

[Duelle]

This holds.... IF they're balanced. They currently are not.

So we're in agreement that WAR and PLD should be balanced to perform at a similar level instead of making one preferable over the other.

Well I would be fine with HP vs Shield abilities if Shield abilities were more viable...

Before anything, I would make shield block rating and block value (as in, threashold of damage reduction when blocking damage with a shield) scale with a stat for PLD. Like...give PLD the trait Ease of Wield, which causes VIT and STR to contribute to shield block rating and block value. What I'm not sure of is if it should be by an amount less than the actual Shield Block stat found in gear (kind of like a supplemental boost) or maybe equal to the Shield Block stat.

As far as damage/enmity output, I'd first give PLDs the ability to counter attack but with their shield hand. Minimal damage (based on block value of the shield), but a good chunk of enmity. It wouldn't do much on the DPS end, but it would be a start.

[Rydin]

So we're in agreement that WAR and PLD should be balanced to perform at a similar level instead of making one preferable over the other.
Before anything, I would make shield block rating and block value (as in, threashold of damage reduction when blocking damage with a shield) scale with a stat for PLD. Like...give PLD the trait Ease of Wield, which causes VIT and STR to contribute to shield block rating and block value. What I'm not sure of is if it should be by an amount less than the actual Shield Block stat found in gear (kind of like a supplemental boost) or maybe equal to the Shield Block stat.

or.....
And this is going to blow people's minds...
Take the stupid ass Dlvl out of every equation...
If you want our characters to block less against higher level MOBs.. then give them higher stats
Dlvl is lazy mans balance...
The Devs do this so they can add new gear that is better than the gear we have now and it doesn't make you OP...
but all it ends up doing is devaluing every other stat in the game....
If you never block on Primals outside of Aegis Boon... then whats the point of having a better shield?

But ranting aside.... I do actually like your idea about the PLD trait... that would definitely help... but as long as Dlvl is there, no matter what you do, PLDs wont block higher level MOBs

[Duelle]

Take the stupid ass Dlvl out of every equation...
If you want our characters to block less against higher level MOBs.. then give them higher stats
Dlvl is lazy mans balance...

Ugh, so they tossed in borked level correction. Guess Matsui didn't learn his lesson from FFXI.

But ranting aside. I do actually like your idea about the PLD trait. that would definitely help. but as long as Dlvl is there, no matter what you do, PLDs wont block higher level MOBs

Heh, now I'm gonna have to refer to WoW, as that was the only game I tanked in where level correction didn't screw you over. Basically, all bosses had their own level bracket, known as Skull Level. This made them instantly 3 levels higher than you, so at most you had to make sure you had enough stats where you could reliably hit/damage a mob three levels higher than you.

I haven't done the high level stuff, but how much higher level are we talking about here? I mean, if the cap is 50 and Ifrit is lv65 then I can see the problem. Things like procs are obviously going to be at a disadvantage, which means that indeed, PLD is screwed by level correction and I would agree that shield block chance should not be affected by level correction. Perhaps the threshold should also be excluded from level correction. Otherwise you'd run into the problem of blocking but your damage mitigated by shields being floored because of level correction.

[Rydin]

Ugh, so they tossed in borked level correction. Guess Matsui didn't learn his lesson from FFXI.
Heh, now I'm gonna have to refer to WoW, as that was the only game I tanked in where level correction didn't screw you over. Basically, all bosses had their own level bracket, known as Skull Level. This made them instantly 3 levels higher than you, so at most you had to make sure you had enough stats where you could reliably hit/damage a mob three levels higher than you.

I haven't done the high level stuff, but how much higher level are we talking about here? I mean, if the cap is 50 and Ifrit is lv65 then I can see the problem. Things like procs are obviously going to be at a disadvantage, which means that indeed, PLD is screwed by level correction and I would agree that shield block chance should not be affected by level correction. Perhaps the threshold should also be excluded from level correction. Otherwise you'd run into the problem of blocking but your damage mitigated by shields being floored because of level correction.

I think Ifrit is the equivalent to Lvl 58... if I recall

[Dawiichan]

Taking damage when getting hit is part of being a tank. It's in the job description.
False. Gameplay, gearing and abilities make them quite different. This is the reason why WoW, Rift and Lineage II have multiple tank classes. WoW is going to have five (5) come next expansion. All five get hit and have their own slew of abilities for mitigation/damage/utility.

Again, if you're being influenced by the blood vs blink tank thing, get it out of your head. All it does is cloud your judgement. There is MUCH more to tank design and play than whether you're getting hit or blinking damage away.

The difference is that FFXIV's content isnt based on how well a tank can tank, it's about how fast you can beat the dungeon. If they give PLD the same damage as a War, I see that happening, but's it's quite obvious that wont happen since they'd have to do another full class revamp. I think the problem is that you're thinking too much based on other game's content and not how FFXIV's current content is like. Now for 2.0 I'm all for this, but that's just unrealistic for the way the current version is portraying their content.

So pretty much what you're asking for is either a full PLD class revamp which will probably delay patch 1.22 and 1.23 or for the way content currently is changed, which I'm sure everyone would enjoy but I highly doubt that will happen any time soon before 2.0 because of this client/server's limitations.