Pld buff or War nerf in 1.22?

[Duelle]

I would say WAR doesn't need that....
The STR stance... is WAR
and the VIT stance is PLD....
Jobs should augment stats much more than they do now

Limiting the game to one tank class is a horrible idea. Now if you want to make PLD more versatile, I'm all ears. Nerfing WAR is only going to cause trouble further down the road.

[Rydin]

Limiting the game to one tank class is a horrible idea.

But having classes that excel in multiple situations vs classes that do only one thing is the right choice?

BLM's only Nuke... PLD only tanks... DRG only DD's, WHM's only heal....

WAR tanks as good as a PLD and DD's as good as DRG.....

What if there was a class that healed as good as WHM and nuked as good as BLM...

OH right... there was... and it was broken

[Duelle]

But having classes that excel in multiple situations vs classes that do only one thing is the right choice?

As I said, then aim to make classes a little more versatile. Also, consider this. If you grab WAR and give it two stances, one that scales offensively and one that sacles defensively, this means that once the fight starts the WAR is stuck with whatever they chose to equip. If the WAR in tank gear tries to go offensive, he's not going to be anywhere near what he'd be in DPS gear. And because (thankfully) gear cannot be swapped mid-combat, it wouldn't cause a problem. A guy in tank gear trying to DPS doesn't generate good numbers. Just like a guy in DPS gear trying to tank is very unlikely to survive. It balances out and we get to keep our options, so it's a win-win.

[Rydin]

As I said, then aim to make classes a little more versatile. Also, consider this. If you grab WAR and give it two stances, one that scales offensively and one that sacles defensively, this means that once the fight starts the WAR is stuck with whatever they chose to equip. If the WAR in tank gear tries to go offensive, he's not going to be anywhere near what he'd be in DPS gear. And because (thankfully) gear cannot be swapped mid-combat, it wouldn't cause a problem. A guy in tank gear trying to DPS doesn't generate good numbers. Just like a guy in DPS gear trying to tank is very unlikely to survive.

I posed this question to my friends.. and I honestly don't know if WAR and PLD will ever co-exist.....
their tanking styles are so similar.... they both take a hit very well....
So one or the other will always be "in season"

but can they both be "in" at the same time?

[Duelle]

I posed this question to my friends and I honestly don't know if WAR and PLD will ever co-exist.
their tanking styles are so similar. they both take a hit very well.
So one or the other will always be "in season"

but can they both be "in" at the same time?

Firstly, tank classes should be taking hits very well. That's the tank's job; at the end of the day, you're taking hits and surviving. If you're still lulled by the PLD vs NIN thing from XI, I suggest you purge the crap created by Utsusemi from your mind, because I pray every night before going to bed that I never see that ability in an MMO ever again.

Tank classes should be performing roughly the same, if only because it doesn't dilute your tank pool to niches where tank A is not good for certain content, but tank B is not good for other content and such. If a guy wants to gear their WAR as a tank, then by god they have the right to do so.

As far as both being "in", it's all a matter of balancing both jobs. I've been a tank in more than just FFXI, and I can tell you that having discrepancies between tanks is a horrible thing. Worse if you're the poor sod that picked the "wrong" tank class. We need less discrepancies and more options for the tank role, not the opposite.

[Frein]

Tank classes should be performing roughly the same, if only because it doesn't dilute your tank pool to niches where tank A is not good for certain content, but tank B is not good for other content and such. If a guy wants to gear their WAR as a tank, then by god they have the right to do so.

This is not much of a problem in a game where you can have multiple classes in one character. I would be perfectly fine with expanding the PLD niche by buffing its resistance to magical damage and thus making it the preferred tank where an overwhelming majority of incoming damage is magical in nature.

I don't think you'll want to touch WAR too much because I find it to be one of the most successfully designed classes. It really is the unstoppable force of destruction depicted in FFXIV lore without actually dominating multiple roles.

It doesn't have quite the damage output of other melee but its toughness lets it go all out much more safely and dominate groups of lesser foes. You don't want to bring a WAR for a purely focused DPS role but it's excellent when you need a combination of high AoE damage output and ability to survive focused fire from multiple enemies. It's similar to how the arms warrior performed in vanilla WoW and ToB: on single targets you would lose to squishier classes and fury warriors but your ability to cleave through groups of enemies was unmatched, yet you weren't nearly as good a main tank as a protection warrior (though I did once take over at Firemaw when the MT died and we still got the win). FFXIV doesn't actually have encounters where you need a completely defensively focused tank, however, so WAR is always preferred even if PLD defense was substantially better (which it isn't).

[Duelle]

This is not much of a problem in a game where you can have multiple classes in one character. I would be perfectly fine with expanding the PLD niche by buffing its resistance to magical damage and thus making it the preferred tank where an overwhelming majority of incoming damage is magical in nature.

I'm not for niche play, mostly because what makes a "good" player is not his understanding of the tank role or his gear, but whether he has X number of jobs levelled and geared. I'm not a fan of inventory clutter, which is facilitated by niche play. That and I'm also against forcing people to play jobs and classes they have little interest in for prolongued amounts of time. It's a courtesy I grant others and I expect to be granted to me.

[SwordCoheir]

As I said, then aim to make classes a little more versatile. Also, consider this. If you grab WAR and give it two stances, one that scales offensively and one that sacles defensively, this means that once the fight starts the WAR is stuck with whatever they chose to equip. If the WAR in tank gear tries to go offensive, he's not going to be anywhere near what he'd be in DPS gear. And because (thankfully) gear cannot be swapped mid-combat, it wouldn't cause a problem. A guy in tank gear trying to DPS doesn't generate good numbers. Just like a guy in DPS gear trying to tank is very unlikely to survive. It balances out and we get to keep our options, so it's a win-win.

The only problem with that is the base damage of the weapon has the biggest influence on the possible damage a player can do. Being WAR has the strongest and PLD has the weakest weapons there isn't any competition with the enmity that can be produced. I could go out and auto attack a mob with my blade for 100-200, and my WAR in the same equipment could land anywhere between 300-600 damage, that averages to three times the Enmity gained over PLD in a single attack round. Sure PLD's combo bonus can produce four times the enmity vs WAR's skull sunder combo, but followed up by a increased critical chance Steel Cyclone that can massively heal (with rampage), stun, and deal often 1k+ damage, even PLD's combo is often still choking on the dust of WAR's Enmity generation. Hell even the damage produced just by steel cyclone often destroys the amount of Enmity produced by Flash, upstanding our only AoE job ability we can use reliably for crowd control.

Problems are only compounded where offensive/defensive gear/materia does not really conflict with one another (at least not enough to make a major difference in DPS), and VIT becoming one of WAR's damage bonus stats makes it even more offensive and defensive in the end while PLD just receives defensive benefits.

Speaking of defense, there really isn't any difference between the two jobs save a minor +12 defense due to an extra Trait GLA gets. This isn't really beneficial when PLD's tactic is supposed to be a turtle tank over WAR, and things are only compounded worse when it comes to Shields because...

-Partial Parries often reduce the damage taken below 20% of what the attack would have originally done, while blocks only reduce a small portion of damage off the top. (IE: 3k damage move is parried down to ~600dmg, while a block only reduces it to 2800.)
-Parries occur about as often as Shield Blocks.
-Wearing a shield causes PLD to lose the ability to parry.
-PLD is FORCED to wear a shield in order to utilize half it's abilities.

So essentially PLD is FORCED to take more damage over time than WAR to function properly.

If that doesn't constitute to peoples Idea of "BROKEN" I'd really hate to see what they think is broken.

Sorry Duelle, kinda went into rant mode. None of it's directed at you but I did want to build off what you said in the discussion.

[Duelle]

The only problem with that is the base damage of the weapon has the biggest influence on the possible damage a player can do.

I'm beginning to feel that some are not understanding my WAR suggestion. I'll paste what I posted many months ago in the "Fix MRD" thread:

I've never been good at two-hander design, but something along the lines of:

Pillager's Grip: Offensive oriented stance. Emphasis on STR, granting accuracy and attack speed bonuses. VIT's value is reduced by 50% when in this stance.

Seadog's Guile: Defensive oriented stance. Emphasis on VIT, granting defense and Enmity bonuses. STR's value is reduced by 50% when in this stance.

Both stances cancel each other out, and MRD-native abilities have bonuses to damage when in the former, enmity bonuses when in the latter.

Following the Offensive/Defensive stance paradigm, you'd have to lower potential MRD/WAR damage and survivability when "stanceless", then use the stances as multipliers to increase damage while receiving less defense or increase enmity generated while gaining less from strength and offensive stats. The point of this would be separate the tank and DPS aspects of WAR so that we don't have this class that can do both things at once and thus having a negative effect on things like party dynamics and PLDs. FFXI's Red Mage suffered because of this exact same problem. I'm surprised no one learned from it. Note: I'm aware Berserk and Rampage try to take this approach, but the difference between both is not really enough, IMO.

Being WAR has the strongest and PLD has the weakest weapons there isn't any competition with the enmity that can be produced. I could go out and auto attack a mob with my blade for 100-200, and my WAR in the same equipment could land anywhere between 300-600 damage, that averages to three times the Enmity gained over PLD in a single attack round.

Then scale enmity generated by PLD with something else. Enmity bonuses outside of Sentinel would give the job a leg up in that aspect.

Problems are only compounded where offensive/defensive gear/materia does not really conflict with one another (at least not enough to make a major difference in DPS), and VIT becoming one of WAR's damage bonus stats makes it even more offensive and defensive in the end while PLD just receives defensive benefits.

If this is indeed the case, then that needs to change.

-Partial Parries often reduce the damage taken below 20% of what the attack would have originally done, while blocks only reduce a small portion of damage off the top. (IE: 3k damage move is parried down to ~600dmg, while a block only reduces it to 2800.)

Wow...this is REALLY lopsided in favor of parries. That needs adjusting. Either bring shield blocking up or nerf the threashold for partial parries. I'd start with my suggestion to make blocks get a bonus from STR to help, then see how things develop.

-Parries occur about as often as Shield Blocks.

This is not a bad thing. Full mitigation (I.E.: Duelle parries King Behemoth's attack! <== no damage taken) would need to disappear or be lessened and make partial parries a WAR's mitigation mechanic.

-Wearing a shield causes PLD to lose the ability to parry.

This needs to be corrected. This in no way makes sense.

So essentially PLD is FORCED to take more damage over time than WAR to function properly.

...yeah that makes no sense.

It sounds to me like the devs are banking on what was basically timing your cures cast around mob swings. With little else. Forget nerfing WAR. PLD needs fixes.

[Dawiichan]

Limiting the game to one tank class is a horrible idea. Now if you want to make PLD more versatile, I'm all ears. Nerfing WAR is only going to cause trouble further down the road.

That's pretty much what the game is right now.

To stay with the traditional reason for this post, this is what I think SE should/will do.

First of all, Warrior most likely won't get nerfed in any way in patch 1.22. This is because if War is nerfed there isn't going to be a tank in the game that will be sufficient. However the Welcome Back campaign is set for mid May, so I can see them trying to make PLD viable by then, which may start off with patch 1.22a(more hamlet defense and maybe Job Weapons).

To make PLD viable, you'd need to make it so that PLD only needs 1 healer for the current 8 person party content. However there are instances where Warrior can do this, such as Miser or Moogle.