#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

[Punslinger]

The risk however if healers gets more DPS skills to flesh it out is that we'll be back to ARR when groups got mad at healers not using said DPS skills when there's no healing to be done.
We could be back to groups shadow kicking healers for not playing "optimal" simply because they are playing healers to heal and not to deal damage.
This isn't a job design flaw but a people problem.
Also, if healers do get more DPS skills content would have to get adjusted for that extra DPS meaning that a healer who doesn't DPS will bring the rest of the group down.
Which would only fuel the group members pressure on the Healers.

This was removed before due to the splitting and toxicity of the playerbase so I don't see SE going back to such times anytime soon.
Not until people can be trusted to not bash on people not performing optimal.

"The risk, however, if tanks get more than two DPS skills, is that we'll be back to ARR when groups got mad at tanks not using said DPS skills when there's no tanking to be done.
We could be back to groups shadow kicking tanks for not playing "optimal" simply because they are playing tanks to tank and not to deal damage.
This isn't a job design flaw but a people problem.
Also, if tanks do get more than two DPS skills, content would have to be adjusted for that extra DPS meaning that a tank who doesn't DPS will bring the rest of the group down.
Which would only fuel the group members' pressure on the tanks.

Tank stance DPS penalty was removed before due to the splitting and toxicity of the playerbase, so I don't see SE going back to such times anytime soon. Not until people can be trusted to not bash on people not performing optimally."

It's the exact same logic.

Your argument is just a very long-winded way of saying, "All healers are glue-huffing monkeys, and need to be babied and coddled by the game so that they can't possibly fail in any way. Meanwhile, DPS and Tank jobs are played by responsible adults and we should get actual DPS rotations, and also healing abilities so we can do the raid leader's girlfriend's healer's job for them when they inevitably fail."

If you want to take healing away then you have to give tanks something else, you cannot just turn tanks into "dps with a provoke" so that you feel relevant and useful.

I hate to break it to you, buddy, but tanks are already Blue DPS with defensive CDs. That is why they have actual DPS rotations. Tanks don't need to actively manage aggro anymore. Their mitigation is all off the GCD.

if you think FFXIV tanks are self-sufficient just wait until you see what a geared tank can do in a game like WoW

Appeal to Worse Problems Fallacy. "This other game gives its tanks even more cheat codes, so it's okay if FF14 gives its tanks only a few cheat codes!"

FFXIV´s tank self sustain s not the issue nor the reason why healing in FFIXV is in the situation it is, and it is just a lazy "solution" that would affect the rest of us.

Yes, it is one of the reasons. When WAR can heal not only itself but also the whole damn party in Expert dungeons, what is there for the healer to do? News flash: This is a multiplayer game, which means you should not be able to do everything all by yourself.

So again, keep us out of your problems.

Translation: "I like playing FF14 with cheat codes! Stop taking away my tank privilege!"

[Rolder50]

And savage and ult prog have plenty of enagagement as a healer imo. Thought this was about normal content. I dont think anyone can say savage and ult at the very least prog is devoid of engagment or skill expression.

Nope, even in Savage and Ultimate, you will still be spending 75%+ of your GCDs on damage. If you weren't, you would just be standing around picking your nose.

[Ramiee]

More DPS is always needed for roulettes
For dungeons you need 2 DPS compared to 1 tank and 1 healer
For trials/raids you need 4 DPS compared to 2 tanks and 2 healers
For alliance raids you need 5 DPS compared to 2 healers and 1 tank.

If healers and tanks were considered well designed and fun why do DPS queues take upwards of 10-20 minutes on average when you need more DPS to fill up parties than the supports?
Clearly it's because there are less people playing them. Why are less people playing them? Because DPS is more fun.

[Shurrikhan]

Nope, even in Savage and Ultimate, you will still be spending 75%+ of your GCDs on damage. If you weren't, you would just be standing around picking your nose.

Tbf, reflexively hitting a filler button (cognitively no more demanding than idling except in its impact on limiting oGCD use to one or two [near-zero ping] oGCDs per round) doesn't mean there can't be cognitive load enough from other sources.

In itself, our attacks may as well not exist for all the cognitive load they bring to attacking. But, that doesn't mean they contribute nothing to forcing a sort of pacing, and in turn a bit more cognitive load, onto healing (especially if we were to have, say, more frequent access to oGCDs but with a secondary cost [e.g., MP] constraining use in the longer term).

...Though, there's then all the more to be said for the issue of learning a fight quickly making those other sources about as shallow/automatic as going drinking bird on one's spam attack key.

[Evergrey]

-snip-

You don't have to like my comment, that's fine.
But this is what happened once and Yoshi himself said in an interview that he don't think giving healers more dps skills is the way to go. Bringing up the "putting pressure on the healers" as a reason for it.
So it's not me calling healers "glue-huffers", those are your own words.

[Punslinger]

Found this gem in the thread and just had to respond to it:

Why do we need more game play than we already have? It's more than what DPS get.

We need to heal someone? We have more than one single target heal to use. We need to heal multiple party members at the same time? We have more than one AoE heal to use.

Yes, it is so difficult choosing whether to use Cure 2, Instant Cure 2 (Afflatus Solace), oGCD Cure 2 (Tetragrammaton), or two Cure 2s in a trenchcoat (Benediction).

This is not Vanilla WoW. HPM is not a thing here, and MP is not a scarce resource. You have no Heal/Greater Heal/Flash Heal trifecta to choose from based on the situation. You have a basic GCD healing kit, and a plethora of oGCDs that all do basically the same thing. Mash one of them and move on with life.

We need to react to mechanics just as DPS do (or don't since we can always rez them if they try to greed and fail).

So do tanks, but they get a DPS rotation.

We need to watch the boss HP and cast bar to time our use of our more powerful cooldown when needed.

So do tanks, but they get a DPS rotation.

We need to watch party member HP, buffs and debuffs to know when healing is needed and how much, to know if Esuna is needed.

So do tanks (when using group mits, Cover, Heart of Corundum, etc.), but they get a DPS rotation.

The exceptional healers are even watching where party members are standing so they can Rescue them if needed and available.

So do tanks, when deciding where to bait tankbusters and position the boss, but they get a DPS rotation.

DPS game play already stops short of where healer game play does.

Which is why my DNC has Curing Waltz, Improvisation, and Second Wind, amirite?

Why aren't we hearing complaints about a lack of DPS game play?

Because DPS jobs get more than one button to press when no healing is required.

The big difference between the two is that the DPS experience is generally consistent. They rarely need to alter their focus while the healer does frequently if not constantly. The healer experience varies depending on other in the party. Skilled players mean only needing to worry about unavoidable damage. One or more lesser skill players means needing to keep more constant watch on the party (is the less skilled player standing in mechanics, are they stacking on others when they should be standing apart so more party members need healing, etc.).

Translation: Healers must all be piss-easy to play because sometimes you might get a bad party in DF and need to use all your healing skills. Healing should only be fun when the game asks you to babysit the short bus.

[pschwaab]

More DPS is always needed for roulettes
For dungeons you need 2 DPS compared to 1 tank and 1 healer
For trials/raids you need 4 DPS compared to 2 tanks and 2 healers
For alliance raids you need 5 DPS compared to 2 healers and 1 tank.

If healers and tanks were considered well designed and fun why do DPS queues take upwards of 10-20 minutes on average when you need more DPS to fill up parties than the supports?
Clearly it's because there are less people playing them. Why are less people playing them? Because DPS is more fun.

I've been following this thread for a while but haven't posted yet, and wasn't planning on posting because I think people have made most of the points I could possibly make, but I saw this comment and had to post. This just sums it up. 100000% this. DPS is just more fun. This is the trouble I've been running into for a while now. Back in heavensward and stormblood while I was a DPS main I loved to play Astro from time to time because I've always loved playing healers in other MMOs (though I usually played a hybird of some kind) it was really fun going back and forth between dps and healer because they were totally different playstyles and scratched different itches for me. Whenever playing DPS got monotonous for me, I would always dip into healer. When I got bored of casting times and wanted something faster, I swapped back to DPS. Wheras today I try to play healer in dungeons (my preferred content) and I just... am so bored. I'm simply playing a way less fun DPS that sometimes heals. The playstyle doesn't feel like it's different enough from DPS to scratch that itch for me anymore. Current healer design is now just my least favorite part of healer, the incredibly boring damage rotation and then just mashing my ogcds without having to put any thought into which ones I am mashing occasionally. When I play DPS I use every button on my bar, when I play healer I don't even use half of them. DPS is designed to have a flow from one skill to the next, and it's clear there was a lot of thought and time put into making each rotation feel engaging and satisfying and... fun. Healer just... isn't that. And before anyone says it because I know someone will, those of us that don't like to do harder content deserve to have fun and be engaged too, this whole post started because of the dungeon that was soloed without healers. Some people just genuinely like dungeons, and want to have fun doing them, that doesn't make their opinion on the state of healers less valid than savage raiders. Casual dungeon enjoyers are paying the same sub price, and probably make up a much larger portion of the playerbase than savage raiders, so they shouldn't be gatekept or discounted for wanting their role to feel engaging in the content they enjoy. As things stand now I'm gonna stick to DPS, but I frequently burn out when that's all I do, which is a shame because healers should be fun.

[Bobby66]

I think we all acknowledge that there are people who like current healers, that's why a lot of proposed designs are made with the current playstyle in mind.

But there's absolutely no way you can prove that more people love healers the way they are now than before, because you haven't factored in people who main a certain job and will play that job no matter what changes happen to it.

The only data point we have access to (Luckybancho's survey) shows that the percentage of healers have decreased over time, it remains to be seen if it will continue to decrease, but SE should clearly have this data too.

Again, you're arguing from the perspective that SE has a plan and are objectively correct according to the data, but we don't know that, you don't know that. So why is it that we're disingenuous? We don't even know if returning SCH to SB would decrease the population, it might even increase the population.

I did say maybe, but from a a simple numbers POV if a lot of people hated healers wouldn't queues be the point where it is borderline unplayable? I am not saying the plan SE has is objectively correct, I am saying SE has a plan that may just very well not fit within what we want from healers and even the game as a whole. What I am saying is SE has clearly has a vision, if that vision has a place for me as a healer player or not is up for debate but to think they don't have a vision because they don't tell us is silly. Doesn't it show that FFXIV in general is in decline just like any long standing MMO?

In my view if something has been changed asking for the change to be reverted is disingenuous because it shits on those that may enjoy that aspect for what it is in this moment and ignores the fact that for whatever reason the change from what it was before must have happened to why it is the way it is now. Just how I was raised I guess.

Sure we don't have the data points but we do have a point in history where healers were changed from something akin to what a group of people are asking for now. That change happened for some reason we cannot deny that, and I think it is silly to pretend that change did not happen or it happened in some vacuum that holds no merit what so ever.

Nope, even in Savage and Ultimate, you will still be spending 75%+ of your GCDs on damage. If you weren't, you would just be standing around picking your nose.

During prog? Maybe I am trash but nah I do not feel that is the case, after the fight is mapped out and it is optimized sure but at that is bound to happen once you get use to the fight. Just like when you start to gear up a fight becomes easier that is just the nature of progression.

I wish the people who clearly enjoyed healer played it more so my DPS queues weren't as long

Right now my queue is around 15 min as a DPS that is not horrible in my opinion. DPS queues will always be longer that is a problem across the board when it comes to any trinity based game. Generally speaking you always have more DPS players than healers or tanks I cannot think of one MMO that I have played where dps out paced tank and healers by a large margin.

[ForsakenRoe]

I always wonder how paranoid people have to be in their day to day life, that when they hear someone say 'we should have a change to healers so they're more fun, in all content levels, for all skill levels of player', they just immediately jump to 'oh no they're going to turn the healers into some hyper-complex quantum mathematics thing I don't want that', like the two extremes are 'one button spam' like now, or 'literally TK Monk rotation'. No in-between state can possibly exist, apparently.

Here's an example of what I'd do to one of the healers, let's take SCH as an example:

Broil IV: 300p
Biolysis, 350p over 30s
Miasmalysis: 340p over 24s
Shadowflare: 320p over 15s

(numbers are examples and not balanced against the hypothetical potencies of other healers)

With that, you could ignore the DOTs entirely, all three of them, and just use Broil instead. Doing that would cost you a total of 560 potency over two minutes. That's right, you'd lose less than one Broil cast worth of damage per minute. The idea that 'if we increase the complexity of the DPS side of healers, it'd exclude casuals' is a long-dead strawman, because it's super easy to design systems in such a way as to 'aid the casuals', either by guiding them towards the 'correct' gameplay, or by reducing the punishment of 'incorrect' gameplay (as this does).

Here's another example. Dia is 70 damage, and then 70 per tick. If you spam it for mobility, you get the first 70 each cast. So, why not boost that to 270, and reduce the DOT tick potency by 20, keeping the total potency the same, but frontloading more of the damage, so that 'spam while moving' is less punishing?

People say 'we have to consider the casual player, and keep things casual-friendly', but I can point to many design elements that SE has put in that are incredibly 'unfriendly' to casual players

[Bobby66]

I always wonder how paranoid people have to be in their day to day life, that when they hear someone say 'we should have a change to healers so they're more fun, in all content levels, for all skill levels of player', they just immediately jump to 'oh no they're going to turn the healers into some hyper-complex quantum mathematics thing I don't want that', like the two extremes are 'one button spam' like now, or 'literally TK Monk rotation'. No in-between state can possibly exist, apparently.

Here's an example of what I'd do to one of the healers, let's take SCH as an example:

Broil IV: 300p
Biolysis, 350p over 30s
Miasmalysis: 340p over 24s
Shadowflare: 320p over 15s

With that, you could ignore the DOTs entirely, all three of them, and just use Broil instead. Doing that would cost you a total of 560 potency over two minutes. That's right, you'd lose less than one Broil cast worth of damage per minute. The idea that 'if we increase the complexity of the DPS side of healers, it'd exclude casuals' is a long-dead strawman, because it's super easy to design systems in such a way as to 'aid the casuals', either by guiding them towards the 'correct' gameplay, or by reducing the punishment of 'incorrect' gameplay (as this does).

Here's another example. Dia is 70 damage, and then 70 per tick. If you spam it for mobility, you get the first 70 each cast. So, why not boost that to 270, and reduce the DOT tick potency by 20, keeping the total potency the same, but frontloading more of the damage, so that 'spam while moving' is less punishing?

People say 'we have to consider the casual player, and keep things casual-friendly', but I can point to many design elements that SE has put in that are incredibly 'unfriendly' to casual players

I think what people are afraid of and to be fair FFXIV community has shown it can become a slave to the numbers just like any community. I think people are afraid of going back to those silly debates and topics of healers and that do damage verse those that done. People that silent kick healers for not doing damage or doing piss poor damage. Maybe I remember a different FFXIV when I played more hardcore back but yeah I could 100% could see a bunch of people shit on others for missing out of 560 potency. Hell, if I was the who I was back then I probably would be one of those people that would say shit. I also be that type of player in WoW. Maybe I have a different pov cause I was one of those toxic elitist when I was younger that expected people to play to a certain level in all forms of content.

From that perspective I can see to a degree maybe why they wish to streamline stuff more. I know you should not throw the baby out with the bathwater but sometimes shitty people do ruin things for everyone else.

Sure it is a strawman, but it is an aspect that Yoshi-P himself has mentioned is what holds him back from giving healers more damage tools even slightly. I do not think we can forget that. Sure some elements are not causal friendly, but for the most part baseline content is fairly causal friendly. Hell you probably could be normal mode content just by doing basic 123 across the board and nothing else.