Frontlines sucks Ultra megathread

[DallsBeep]

What a terrible take, nobody would play this if it was 1v1.

lol What? The number of teams involved in the match does not figure into whether people play or not. Most people just play for the exp and the PVP community wants it treated like an actual PVP mode when it isn't it's just an exp farm. And I'm telling you one method you could do to treat it like a PVP mode. If you're going to keep rewarding mediocrity in this mode to such an extent..loads of mediocre players will continue to participate. Until you address that problem then there's no point in wanting this mode to be competitive because it never will be.

I think what you meant to say but for some reason didn't, is that nobody is going to queue up if their exp isn't assured. There are already people who run premades all night over getting some lame achievements how much more so will people run premades all night if it's over exp. What it accomplishes is leveling the playing field which solves literally every issue people have with his mode. You can either continue to cater to the PVE'er who's levelling up his 11th class and has no idea what he's doing or cater to PVP'ers. Pick one.

[DallsBeep]

The people being driven out currently are those who like PvP and attempt to be good at it, but dislike playing with or against premades who diminish their agency.

Yeah you're right about that. In my case, if I'm playing FL it's just because I want to level some class, which isn't often I'm pretty retired from PVE and only run CC now. And you agreed earlier in your post that if these premades were actually facing players prepared for them then they wouldn't care for it and would lose interest. So it seems clear to me, you either don't allow or disincentivize premades or you do the same with their fodder, one side of the food chain has to go or it'll just continue being a parasitic relationship. I think that's pretty gross to have as a game mode but that's essentially what we have.

[Mawlzy]

Yeah you're right about that. In my case, if I'm playing FL it's just because I want to level some class, which isn't often I'm pretty retired from PVE and only run CC now. And you agreed earlier in your post that if these premades were actually facing players prepared for them then they wouldn't care for it and would lose interest. So it seems clear to me, you either don't allow or disincentivize premades or you do the same with their fodder, one side of the food chain has to go or it'll just continue being a parasitic relationship. I think that's pretty gross to have as a game mode but that's essentially what we have.

It's why I've come round to the idea of a matchmaking algorithm, but I think then the queues only pop if you reduce team size. But yeah, I agree with you. Having apex predators feeding on herbivores isn't PvP.

[Aidorouge]

Ugh, no, if there were zero rewards for losing, the mode would likely die overnight or become a walled off clubhouse with only a few dozen members, because the main reason most people queue now is because there's a consolation prize at least for being stomped by premades and cheaters. Likewise, said premades and cheaters would either hate to be put up against their own "kind" and end up queue-dodging/throwing, or they would love it because it would make it super easy to coordinate win-trading when it's only ever the same 70+ players showing up each time on each data center. At that point it wouldn't be catering to PVE or PVP players, but rather just giving up and officially handing these self-ordained rulers exclusive rights to an entire mode.

I know I certainly wouldn't bother to queue anymore, as winning would still be reliant on RNG I can't control, but now losing would be even more grueling and frustrating, and that's assuming the rulers "allowed" me to participate at all because again, it would be way too easy to coordinate with their own and "push out" anyone they don't like or doesn't fall in line with their methods, and suddenly 1v1v1 has become 1v71.

[DallsBeep]

Ugh, no, if there were zero rewards for losing, the mode would likely die overnight or become a walled off clubhouse with only a few dozen members, because the main reason most people queue now is because there's a consolation prize at least for being stomped by premades and cheaters. Likewise, said premades and cheaters would either hate to be put up against their own "kind" and end up queue-dodging/throwing, or they would love it because it would make it super easy to coordinate win-trading when it's only ever the same 70+ players showing up each time on each data center. At that point it wouldn't be catering to PVE or PVP players, but rather just giving up and officially handing these self-ordained rulers exclusive rights to an entire mode.

I know I certainly wouldn't bother to queue anymore, as winning would still be reliant on RNG I can't control, but now losing would be even more grueling and frustrating, and that's assuming the rulers "allowed" me to participate at all because again, it would be way too easy to coordinate with their own and "push out" anyone they don't like or doesn't fall in line with their methods, and suddenly 1v1v1 has become 1v71.

So a PVP mode needs people who can't and/or aren't interested in PVP to survive? If the population of PVPers is so small and irrelevant that a few small parties can completely dominate the matchmaking without anyone to oppose them, then they deserve the benefits of being dominant. I for one think it's just dumb anyways to separate PVP from PVE entirely and going as far as making the abilities and gameplay completely detached and still rewarding players with PVE experience when they weren't doing anything even remotely related to their PVE class. There are plenty of ways in this game to max out a class, it isn't particularly difficult or time consuming, it's something you can just do entirely by accident. So we really NEED FL and CC to give PVE experience? Nah I don't think so, I don't even think it's even logical. Make PVP rewards separate and remove the PVE element entirely. If a "small group of people" still dominate particular game modes, then they win. Get some PVPers to oppose them then. It's far better than asking a bunch of people who don't even care about PVP to substantiate the mode's existence by essentially bribing them to keep it relevant.

If you NEED turbo casuals in the mode and insist that we must keep aforementioned bribe in play, then just accept that people who know what they're doing are going to continually exploit and crush them due to their naivety. I really don't know what you were expecting to happen when mixing those elements lol

[Aidorouge]

So a PVP mode needs people who can't and/or aren't interested in PVP to survive? If the population of PVPers is so small and irrelevant that a few small parties can completely dominate the matchmaking without anyone to oppose them, then they deserve the benefits of being dominant.

You seem to be under the mistaken belief that the ones dominating (or dictating rather, they make the rules for the mode and not Square-Enix) do so based on talent or skill when that's highly debatable for an untold amount of them, or that the key to making PVP "better" is to evolve it from toxic to downright radioactive.

All you're asking for is a different but equally awful clown fiesta where the premade and plugin use would remain rampant if not escalate because those groups don't want competition, they want to be spoon-fed, as evident by how they conduct themselves right now, including the part where they specifically came to Dynamis for quicker leveling (something you think they're not interested in using the mode for) because they're guaranteed to win against a data center full of people who are just now stepping into PVP for the first time to level as well (doubly so for the 4 new servers) because the queues before were so bad, most never bothered with it at all until Dawntrail (or in my case, I data center traveled when it was still allowed). Ironically, removing XP for the loser (which I assume includes 3rd *and* 2nd place) would see the newer folks clearing out and writing off the entire mode, and the exclusive club just win-trading with each other for the 1st place rewards until they hit 100 on everything (and then stay to max out their series rewards if they haven't already).

So the PVE folks don't even show up anymore, and the PVP folks don't even seriously fight (or fight at all). At that junction the mode might as well be removed entirely because it failed to provide any sort of meaningful content for anyone, and it's not even an outlandish idea either because they've patched out PVP modes before. At best, they leave it but abandon it entirely like they did Rival Wings, while likely removing maps and the roulette bonus from it, if not nerf rewards completely, to discourage exploitation. With little to gain and nobody to decimate, I doubt the queue for it would ever pop again outside of mogtomes events, assuming they bothered to include it much like how Crystaline Conflict is made to sit those out.

[DallsBeep]

You seem to be under the mistaken belief that the ones dominating (or dictating rather, they make the rules for the mode and not Square-Enix) do so based on talent or skill

I don't think so buddy, I've made it abundantly clear how I believe they're doing it, they're fed an endless supply of transient casual players to abuse. That's 100% how they're doing it lmao The rest of your post is just pure what-if's and conjecture. Yes I'm completely sure removing PVE exp from a PVP game mode is going to render it insanely crazy toxic, that's quite a leap there. You PVP to PVP, if you're just there for the rewards and you're not going to l2p and contribute, it's no different than showing up to a high tier raid and expecting to roll when you weren't geared for it and didn't understand the mechs and spent the whole fight dead. That's something you have to pay other players to do for you in an MMO. Why all of a sudden in PVP we have this mentality that we have to just toss out rewards to people who don't actually engage with the content in a way that you know, merits the reward? PVE'ers are just as toxic and non-inclusive when it comes to something as petty as a normal dungeon run. They complain over lots of things that costs them mere seconds. So, no, I'm not being unduly harsh to small woodland creatures or anything.

What is it you're asking for exactly? Except for obviously the removal of an obstacle that's standing between you and FL wins. Irrespective of how "cheap" or "unskilled" it might be, that's literally all I can attribute to your posts in essence. "I want to win"..well..so do the people who queue together in pre-mades, what makes your desire for W's in PVP more important than theirs?

[Magikazam]

idk to me frontline is that one funny free xp roulette and I don't see them touching it soon. Zerg train vs Zerg train mode rarely feel balanced in pvp.

[Mistress_Irika]

How about give people a reason to learn instead of stripping rewards entirely from the losing teams? The only thing you'll accomplish with that sort of system is the system collasping on itself. You get rid of those that are bad. Them someone within the remaining group must now become a baddie. Games start to get sweaty, and constant sweaty games aren't fun forcing more to back away until the mode is dead entirely. Very horrible idea.

[Divinesheep]

So a PVP mode needs people who can't and/or aren't interested in PVP to survive? If the population of PVPers is so small and irrelevant that a few small parties can completely dominate the matchmaking without anyone to oppose them, then they deserve the benefits of being dominant. I for one think it's just dumb anyways to separate PVP from PVE entirely and going as far as making the abilities and gameplay completely detached and still rewarding players with PVE experience when they weren't doing anything even remotely related to their PVE class. There are plenty of ways in this game to max out a class, it isn't particularly difficult or time consuming, it's something you can just do entirely by accident. So we really NEED FL and CC to give PVE experience? Nah I don't think so, I don't even think it's even logical. Make PVP rewards separate and remove the PVE element entirely. If a "small group of people" still dominate particular game modes, then they win. Get some PVPers to oppose them then. It's far better than asking a bunch of people who don't even care about PVP to substantiate the mode's existence by essentially bribing them to keep it relevant.

If you NEED turbo casuals in the mode and insist that we must keep aforementioned bribe in play, then just accept that people who know what they're doing are going to continually exploit and crush them due to their naivety. I really don't know what you were expecting to happen when mixing those elements lol

its hard to care about a mode when the developpers of the game don't give a f about