Dawntrail's MSQ story is a disaster and waste of potential. [full spoilers]

[All_Nonsense]

I see where you're coming from. I think a lot of this is because Wuk Lamat got all the screentime. In theory I like having a fakeout where we all thought Bakool Ja Ja was the villain and it turned out to be Zoraal Ja. I would agree that both of them would've benefitted from far more development.

Personally though, I thought he developed pretty well, because even at the start, Wuk Lamat says that Zoraal Ja is why she entered the contest so we have some notion that he is a villain. We also see Zoraal Ja growing angrier and angrier throughout the contest, though it's fairly subtle, like just showing a scene of him staring silently (but I could feel his anger emanating from that scene).

The biggest jump is from Lv95 to Lv96 when he disappears into the golden city, killing his follower, and then suddenly launch a futuristic assault from Alexandria (from his PoV, 30 years has past). Perhaps more development could be done in this part of the story, or some flashbacks to this period later on.

I think if they're going to make him out to be such a mighty and powerful villain, there's some things that need to be done correctly first:

1. Introduction of the villain (done)
2. Establishment of the villain's backstory (we see him in a couple cutscenes, and hardly interact with him - certainly not in a deep enough way to understand him as a person enough to connect with his motivations (this is not the same as agreeing with his motivations))
3. While we're on the subject of motivations, they need to be clear and believable.
4. A steady, LOGICAL progression of the villain throughout the story with several "breaking points" driving him towards his eventual "I will kill all life lol(???)" philosophy that *connects him to the hero of the story.* Why does he wanna kill everyone in Tural? And why does he really wanna kill Wuk Lamat? Sure people can answer it, but those key points were never deeply explored. The end result is the perception of a cartoon-esque villain at that point, doing bad things simply because that's what bad people do.
5. Some degree of attachment to the player. At the very least a villain needs to be relatable in some sense. Part of that involves a rationale that allows you to parse what his motivations and desires are. WoL did NOTHING this expac except complete chores and be the "main character's" weapon when she couldn't solve her own problems. The WoL's relationship with every character in the story is practically non-existent, or very very shallow.

[HighlanderClone]

A steady, LOGICAL progression of the villain throughout the story with several "breaking points" driving him towards his eventual "I will kill all life lol(???)" philosophy that *connects him to the hero of the story.* Why does he wanna kill everyone in Tural? And why does he really wanna kill Wuk Lamat? Sure people can answer it, but those key points were never deeply explored. The end result is the perception of a cartoon-esque villain at that point, doing bad things simply because that's what bad people do.

I can agree that the story leaves you to fill in the blanks on Zoraal Ja's motivations. Hmm, I definitely see where you're coming from and you've given me food for thought.

I like filling in the pieces myself because it makes me feel engaged with the story. I very, very much dislike the MSQ forcefeeding the explanations a million times because they're too worried that the player doesn't get it.

What would the balance be in this case would be something that I need to think about. I wouldn't want the story to just explain Zoraal Ja's motivations outright but I can also see why a lot of people think his transformation is too bizarre.

[All_Nonsense]

I can agree that the story leaves you to fill in the blanks on Zoraal Ja's motivations. Hmm, I definitely see where you're coming from and you've given me food for thought.

I like filling in the pieces myself because it makes me feel engaged with the story. I very, very much dislike the MSQ forcefeeding the explanations a million times because they're too worried that the player doesn't get it.

What would the balance be in this case would be something that I need to think about. I wouldn't want the story to just explain Zoraal Ja's motivations outright but I can also see why a lot of people think his transformation is too bizarre.

There's a lot of ways these themes can be explored. Wuk going to seek counsel from her adoptive father and accidentally overhearing Zoraal arguing with him. Maybe the argument stemming from Zoraal Ja trying to persuade his father to call off the rite since he's his father's only natural born son. Showing a disregard for the diverse cultures in Tural and trying to assert some of his own philosophies before his father scolds him and shoots down his idea. Something that sows the discontent between the characters that can eventually bridge to Zoraal's motivation for murdering his father. And something that clearly but not obviously dictates to the audience what Zoraal Ja's feelings are. That's just one initial scene that would do wonders to add depth to the character.

You can add other instances where the side characters and audience both interact with Zoraal Ja and see him progress towards a path of "might is right, I will bypass the right of succession and just take Tural for myself." You can have him at some point begin acquiring the stones illegitimately. At first with a "crime of opportunity" that then progresses to non-violent but reprehensible means such as coercion or blackmail, but further down the line progressing once again to outright violence like he did at the end before he opened the gate to the golden city. It would flow more naturally too since it was at this point he finally tossed out the idea of obeying the rite and came to the conclusion that killing his father and just taking the throne is the logical solution to achieve his goals.

Also why does he have a kid again? That was just weird and out of nowhere and made no sense. They didn't even try to make sense of that bit, yet it played a critical part in his final transformation into "mr bad man" in the trial.

[Jason_Ashford]

Snip

Zarool Ja's main problem is that he basically didn't exist outside of.... 2 cutscenes priors to Heritage Found. His whole "unite the world through war" rhetoric felt shoved in because they were so busy trying to cram as much main character-ness into Wuk Lamat that they forgot the primary antagonists need character development too. And then that was completely discarded for the "woe is me. my father didn't love me enough to give me the throne". as some last ditch effort to elicit some sympathy for a character who is somehow even more 2-Dimensional than Bakool Ja Ja.

For Wuk Lamat who is supposed to give a shit about her people, she made no efforts at all to try and reach out to her brother despite his problems. she goes from uncaring to angry, to sadmad.

He would have been so much more compelling if they had written him with a fervent desire to prove himself worthy of being the true ruler of Tural and having that devolve into near fanatical desperation as he falls farther and farther behind in the rite of succession, culminating in him turning to Sphene's advanced technology to seize the throne that he feels is rightfully his in exchange for allowing Sphene to harvest his people for their souls and life aether.

[ViaDesperare]

Playing through SoC, which has 3 siblings fighting for their kingdom, and boy are the characters done so much better in SoC, even if the translation is not good.

Dantalion will sacrifice everything for his people, even his own life. Lutfi strives for advancement because every other country is improving, and he wants his country to advance and keep up with them while also fighting to get out of his brother's shadow. Inanna is the naive sheltered princess who learns that the world is unforgiving and has to fight to keep her people safe because a kingdom is nothing without its people.

Compared to a blue lizard boy with daddy issues, siscon nerd brother, and Black-Hole Sue the siblings in that game are insane in characterization, even if you don't like them. They also don't take up 30 hours to get characterized.

You can also get them all killed, so yeah. If only we got to do that with Wuk Lamat and Koana. Watching those three fail, learn, and grow has been so amazing. We really needed similar characterization with DT. Matsuno was hyped to play SoC from what I saw.

[SwadTheFrog]

Playing through SoC, which has 3 siblings fighting for their kingdom, and boy are the characters done so much better in SoC, even if the translation is not good.

Dantalion will sacrifice everything for his people, even his own life. Lutfi strives for advancement because every other country is improving, and he wants his country to advance and keep up with them while also fighting to get out of his brother's shadow. Inanna is the naive sheltered princess who learns that the world is unforgiving and has to fight to keep her people safe because a kingdom is nothing without its people.

Compared to a blue lizard boy with daddy issues, siscon nerd brother, and Black-Hole Sue the siblings in that game are insane in characterization, even if you don't like them. They also don't take up 30 hours to get characterized.

You can also get them all killed, so yeah. If only we got to do that with Wuk Lamat and Koana. Watching those three fail, learn, and grow has been so amazing. We really needed similar characterization with DT. Matsuno was hyped to play SoC from what I saw.

SoC? Sorry - which game? Sounds like a SRPG, and I've been dying to get into a new one.

[Raven2014]

SoC? Sorry - which game? Sounds like a SRPG, and I've been dying to get into a new one.

Sword of Convallaria.

Good news: it's a SRPG.

Bad news: it's a gacha game.

[SwadTheFrog]

Sword of Convallaria

...huh. Free to Play? That's actuallly completely unexpected. Thanks, I'll have a look.

Edit : Oh. It's a Gacha. For fuck's sakes.

[Raven2014]

...huh. Free to Play? That's actuallly completely unexpected. Thanks, I'll have a look.

Edit : Oh. It's a Gacha. For fuck's sakes.

Banner of the Maid, Triangle Strategy, Unicorn Overlord are all fairly recent SRPG tittles that I can recommend for gameplay, characters, and story.

And they're just good old no string attached SP games. You do have to pay for them though.

[ViaDesperare]

If you want other games, try out Troubleshooter Abandoned Children, Brigandine the Legend of Runersia, or Prime of Flames. If you've only played Fire Emblem, those games should be impossible to beat.

On to SoC, it's good. You can enjoy your time in Spiral of Destiny. If you two haven't played it yet, go try it out. You'll be praising the game in a week. The gameplay is better than Triangle Strategy, like insanely better.
In week, you'll be trash talking Wuk and explaining how Inanna and Nono are God-tiers beyond what she can ever be. It may be a gacha, but it's really well done. If you've played LangrisserM, it's pretty much that but in the form of FFT/TO.