Dawntrail's MSQ story is a disaster and waste of potential. [full spoilers]

[HighlanderClone]

I'm writing this thread because I want to discuss the entire story without worrying about spoiling, in a separate thread. But I also want to point to the instances that Square Enix did do right. I hope that people can also discuss the things they liked about the game, because I genuinely believe this MSQ is full of wasted potential. I think it's important to do this because we want to criticize in a way that illuminates the path forward, telling the dev team what worked (for us) and what didn't.

There will be spoilers for up to Lv100. You have been warned.

Opinions are my own.

I personally think this MSQ, when viewed as an entire package, is probably worse than 6.x/ARR. That's how bad it is. I'll split this "review" post into multiple sections, starting with the things that I did like. I'll then talk about the characters, pacing, and plot after that.

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Let me get the things I liked out of the way first.

Because it's only when you see just how great the things they got right were that you realize how much DT was a disaster, because mediocre or even bad writing has a way of making you resent how they wasted the brilliant parts of the story and just how much of a wasted potential Dawntrail MSQ was.

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Zoraal Ja



This might be controversial, but I think Zoraal Ja is hands-down the best villain we had in the entire game.

Moreover, Zoraal Ja is my favorite character in the entire Dawntrail MSQ. I think Zoraal Ja is the best three-dimensional villain that we've got who isn't just a moral dilemma villain like Emet Selch.

I admit my bias here, in that I love ASOIAF and am loving the current season of House of the Dragon. I love seeing the conflicts within a family. Some of the best stories in literature use the family as a unit to explore the tension and drama of humanity. This is why Zoraal Ja worked so well for me. He is a villain that only works in context of his family.

We get slight hints that Gulool Ja Ja isn't necessarily the best father in the story. Zoraal Ja feels spurned by his father and does not seem to bear the same love for him his siblings do, despite being Gulool Ja Ja's son by blood. We don't get many details of his relationship with Gulool Ja Ja, but it seems that Gulool Ja Ja wasn't trying to prod his son open and wasn't opening him up as a parent should. Zoraal Ja also did not have a close relationship with his siblings. Koana and Wuk Lamat both describe him as introverted and a mystery.



The pressures of his birthright and people's expectations of him also, ironically drove a wedge between him and his citizens. Effusive praise leads to alienation. By calling him a Miracle, he was Othered and treated not as his own person, but as the culmination of people's hopes and their wants. This is also why I hate people like G'raha Tia constantly praising the WoL and calling us a hero. It's not friendly. It's alienating.

Imagine for a moment all the pressures of living up to your heroic father, who united the two continents, brokered peace between centuries-old rivals, and pacified continent-ending threats. Can anyone really even achieve half of what Gulool Ja Ja has done? What will they say if you fail? What would happen if tensions between the tribes flare up again? Will the people who called you a "Miracle", the "Promised", the "deserving heir" start to call you a "mistake"? A "Curse"? The "decay" in the natural cycle of civilization after your father's "growth"?

No wonder Zoraal Ja is not just alienated from his subjects but also his father.



In the end, alienated from everyone, he could only trust himself. The expectations turned his father into the object of hate, the source of his woes. The pressures he experienced as the trueborn heir perverted his ideology and drive, compelling him to prove that he is superior. Because if he conquered the world, no one would dare call him the lesser to Gulool Ja Ja.

He sank deeper into this dark path, became a patricide, and nearly became a filicide.



In these moments we see how closely the writers stuck to the theme of Zoraal Ja. His backstory and the atrocities he committed are all closely related to theme of "family". His choice of weapons mirrored that of his father. Even his attacks relate to his theme:


He hates his son because he hates what his father has done to him. But his father hasn't probably antagonized him or beat him up directly. I can't imagine Gulool Ja Ja doing that to Zoraal Ja when he loved Wuk Lamat and Koana. Zoraal Ja is the product of what happens when lofty expectations and worship alienate someone from their own family. We see this at play with royal families too. Gulool Ja Ja probably just did not have the capacity to reach out to his son, or he was simply too busy to. Much like real world royal families.

I hope Square Enix can write more villains or characters like these in the future. It's deep, dark at the right moments, and speaks to the nature of human conflict. Unfortunately neither Wuk Lamat nor Koana came close to this depth despite getting far more screentime.



Also he's just a badass with a badass theme (but some people might understandably think it doesn't fit FF14). I don't think we've really seen that many badass villains like Zoraal Ja since Gaius and Ravana.

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Krile Maya Baldesion



Krile's theme this expansion is also "family", though less deep than that of Zoraal Ja's development. That in itself is not a bad thing because she didn't get that much screentime. Rather, the mystery around Krile's birth and family was intriguing enough to be something that drives the plot forward. I thought that the resolution was sweet and added some needed depth to Krile as a character. I also liked how the mystery around what Galuf, her grandpa, was doing in the New World eventually led to more mystery around her family, and that this neatly ties into the central plot of this expansion surrounding Alexandria.

Krile, in a sense, is a plot device to get us invested in Alexandria and the New World. It's disappointing that we didn't get to see her becoming more fleshed out because Wuk Lamat was the protagonist even though Krile's story is much more intriguing and ties much more heavily with Alexandria.

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Erenville (Elene'shpya)



I also liked Erenville's character this expansion and I especially liked the dynamic between Erenville and Cahciua. They were a very believable mother-and-son pair, and you could just imagine someone in your life that you know who constantly broods, keeps his feelings to himself and has a doting mother that intuitively understands what his son feels. Cahciua knows that Erenville loves her even if he doesn't necessarily express it openly.

I thought that Erenville was an example of a good character who has flaws but doesn't veer into the territory of becoming a caricature. He isn't a complete mute despite his introversion and does tell his mom his feelings. He found it difficult to let his mother go, despite knowing that his mother is just a memory now. He was in this awkward position of never getting to properly mourn his mother once he intuited that the Cahciua we see in Heritage Found is not necessarily his mother.





I like the subtle foreshadowing and slow character buildup that we got throughout the last third of the story with Erenville. It's nuanced and believable. He humanly griefs for his mother in his own way and his character flaws doesn't make him a flawed, unlikable character, but human.

I also liked that his silence and slight facial animations and body language (like facing away from the party, or lagging behind us in the MSQ) tell us what his emotions are without, you know, really telling us. This is a rare case of "show, don't tell" and it absolutely deserves praise.

Krile and Erenville should have been the main protagonists of this expansion.

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Heritage Found

I thought that Heritage Found had the best pacing in the DT MSQ. We are quickly introduced to plot points that develop throughout the zone and the story at this point hooks you with many intrigues and mysteries:

Just who is Sphene? What is her goal?

What are the regulators?

How do they get souls?

Why is Cahciua in a robot?

There is the issue that the writers treat us like babies and have to explain certain concepts again and again. For example, Cahciua first explains what regulators are, and then we are treated to a demonstration by one of the hunters, despite us already seeing its effects in the last boss of Vanguard and with Zoraal Ja. This level of repetition is obnoxious and frankly insults the player's intelligence.

But if you cast that aside for the moment, what makes the fifth zone good is that there are many intrigues pushing the plot forward at the same time. You as the player want to know what exactly is going on and want to see how things will play out. This is absent from the rest of Dawntrail, outside of a few crumbles related to the Golden City in the third zone. Crucially, this intrigue does not need to be high-stakes. Cahciua's appearance as a robot is an intrigue that is very low-stakes compared to the Final Days, but it works because it's related to someone you might care about - Erenville, ties in with the main plot, the Endless, and is something fairly unique and interesting in itself.

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Wuk Evu



I thought this was genuinely a funny comic relief character. He doesn't outstay his welcome and I liked his quirk.

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Now, the bad.

I thought the rest of the Dawntrail's MSQ is mostly a disaster. I'll not go into each issue in that much depth (compared to what I wrote about Zoraal Ja) because I think they are fairly obvious to most players. I went into greater depth about the good parts because I felt that it's important to explain what the MSQ did well so this was constructive, and more importantly highlight just how pitiful the waste of potential really was.

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The visual novelization of FF14 has never been worse.

You can go on for hours without hitting a single combat ability other than Sprint in the MSQ. Combat instances are far and few between. We had one at Lv92, Lv95, and Lv98... and that's it. (Correct me if I'm wrong)

Most of the combat in the MSQ are also just the tired old cliche of waiting by a purple pyre and killing 2 or 3 mobs. There's next to no innovation on this boring formula that has persisted for over 10 years.

The few spices added to the MSQ like shadow missions from EW (where you shadow a person stealthily) are very sparingly used (2 total, I believe), and they did not bother adding anything else to spice up the gameplay.

The last zone, which is supposed to be the most tense, instead has us go through the entire zone without a single instance of combat (correct me if I'm wrong) up until the final dungeon (unless you do the sidequests).

FF14 is supposed to be a video game, not a visual novel.

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Pacing is atrocious.

Next to nothing happens in the first four zones, most of the story beats are wrapped up in the fifth zone, and we other than some character payoff in the last zone which can be condensed into a single hour, next to nothing happens there too.

The character payoff in the last zone is completely at odds with the supposed tension caused by Sphene's retreat into her reflection. We pursue the villain into the last zone, with her threats of consuming the souls of another reflection or of the Source, and we... eat popcorn and chitchat with Endless? Because Wuk Lamat wants to understand the Endless? What?



Is this what you do when you're trying to stop someone from reaping the souls of an entire world?

The pacing is even worse in the first four zones. The first level has us spending an hour bartering for better goods. We get it. The Pelupelu loves bartering and their culture is bartering... There is no need to spend an hour on this. This isn't about the stakes. It's about hammering in a simple point over, and over, and over, and over again. Stop treating your players like idiots and move the plot along once a point is established.

Finally, there is next to no intrigue in the first four zones. There is no mystery pushing the plot forward other than the Golden City, which we get in mere crumbles. The plot only really starts at the end of the fourth zone, as we go into Vanguard.

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Endless is unoriginal.



Are we really getting Amaurot/Elpis 2.0 now? Sphene (Emet Selch) seeks to preserve her subjects, the Endless (the Ancients) through the massacre of others. What? What is the point of going through this same plot again?

You would think that the concept of artificial intelligence, memories, and identity would be something that the story writers can chew on. But they really just made it into Ancients 2.0 and barely explored this potential.

What about showing the dark side of removing traumatic memories? For example, a story beat about a man removed from his wife's memories as punishment for a petty crime, now finding himself spurned by his wife, desperately trying to reconnect with his wife while she threatens to call the guards.

Or what happens when you gorge on souls that are not completely clean? (See the notes in the dungeon Origenics). What happens if you hold the memories of another person? And what if those memories were traumatic? Do you suffer?

Why are these not explored at all? When you do explore these philosophical/psychological conundrums what is the point of even introducing these ideas? We already know about soul transferal from Stormblood. What is the point of expanding on it if you're going to... do nothing with that expansion? If you're going to play with the theme of memories, could you at least go beyond Emet Selch's nostalgia 2.0? Because we already have toyed with that idea/theme. It's called Amaurot.

And why do the Endless all want it to end? Why are they exactly Ancients who feel satisfied, fulfilling their life's goal, and are ready to go back to the Lifestream? What is the point of repeating this story beat that has already been explored? The writers could have added a twist, something to differentiate between the Endless and the Ancients... but they did not.

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Understanding cultures is done in the most uninspired way possible.

It's really tiring to follow a story all about understanding cultures and celebrating diversity when the cultures and diversity are all generic, homogeneous, sterile tropes.

So the Pelupelu likes bartering... And? We needed to do 2 hours of their story to understand that? Moreover, the Pelupelu's love for bartering is frankly disrespectful because surely there is more to them than... bartering. We are really playing a game that claims to celebrate diversity while essentializing these other cultures now? Is this what Square Enix thinks what celebrating diversity means? To make a lot of diverse... tropes??

About the only culture that was even worth spending your time understanding was the Mamool Ja. The rest are bland tropes.



As a result what we get is the most superficial lesson on "unity through diversity". Of course, it's really easy to celebrate that diversity when all that means is that you cook your food with different spices while I celebrate this wholesome and harmless festival.

As an aside, it's also very confusing when, apparently, there is a limit to what the protagonists are willing to accept. Suddenly, in Solution 9, they start criticizing their culture and show real hesitancy in accepting their culture... What.

I suppose this theme of appreciating different cultures would resonate with 4 year olds since all the difficulty and dilemmas of bridging divides is not present. Or well, if lingering resentments are present, we just need to tell them that we want to understand them and everything gets solved magically.

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Wuk Lamat is obnoxious and should not have been the protagonist.

I won't belabor this point, but Wuk Lamat is a cliche, anime teenage girl protagonist who is far too naive and unsuitable to be leader. The only development she got was that she is more open to asking for help... which doesn't really make her a much better character.

She does become less obnoxious in the latter half of Dawntrail, but the writing is worse. Because she turns from being annoying to be nearly a Scion clone, effusively preaching understanding, empathy, and consensus.

Her flashes of anger towards her brother are the one redeeming quality of her writing. Without that she would really just be a Scion clone.

Now, of course, there is nothing intrinsically wrong with having an annoying character. What the real issue is is that Wuk Lamat barely gets punished for her naivety and hotheadedness. In fact, quite the opposite: we are forced to cheer for her inanities.

The dual issue of stale, children's storybook cultures and Wuk Lamat is crucial for this setup to work for the writers. If the cultures aren't just tropes and lingering resentment is hard to erode, Wuk Lamat would surely be punished by her naive attempts at bridging divides. The writing of Wuk Lamat can only work because the entire first half of the story has been reduced to something more apt for a 4 year old.

It's ironic that the story subtly chides Alexandrians from avoiding trauma and stress through memory erasure but does the exact same to us through its writing in the first half.

The story would have been far better if Wuk Lamat was a side character and we mainly followed Krile and Erenville.

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Bakool Ja Ja's transition makes no sense.

He goes from villain to protagonist real fast. Seemingly in the space of a single cutscene at the Skydeep Cenote. It would be believable if he just goes from villain to dejected loser because the story does hint at his dejectedness. But he goes from villain to... supporting us in a single cutscene? What? The buildup is really poor.

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The story deals with the theme of death like we're little kids.

(copy-pasting some of what I said elsewhere)

When I heard that Dawntrail would reference FF9 I was hoping that the core themes and tone would be similar, but they are very different. FF9 had a much darker tone despite the visual style, and it was great at tackling the core theme of death. DT doesn't seem invested in going that deep into the theme other than a gauntlet of sending off satisfied Endless (read: Ancients).

People in Elpis and last zone die satisfied. They are fulfilled and are happy moving on.

A lot of deaths in FF9 are the opposite. They suffered and died without dignity, and have unfulfilled dreams. The last two bosses also have a death drive, opposite to Sphene.

The last zone in DT is about happily letting go, while FF9 is about dealing with the suffering of death and the dark side of what the presence of death does to people. Sphene seeks to preserve lives because she values lives. Someone like Brahne is moreso motivated by the fear of her own death.

There is a lack of a death drive or the ugliness of the fear of death in DT. (People like Zoraal Ja are not like Kuja - Kuja was self-destructive, Zoraal Ja was not except by accident). If you refrain from exploring the dark side of death you cannot convincingly do the theme justice. Death is something that animates so much of our vices as humanity. The dark sides of this fear of death and the twisted death drive and self-destruction are ignored in the story. The lack of stakes and the lack of fearing that any of the protagonists could die undermines this theme even further.

*Death drive is the primal instinct to destroy everything, including yourself.

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Scions are pointless.

I don't think much needs to be expanded on this. Scions have gotten barely any character development and they are even more pointless now in this expansion. They have completely outstayed their welcome in the story. You can find more discussion here: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/486946

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Cheap attempts at baiting a cry out of the player.

Personally, I'm sick of the constant cheap and transparent attempts at baiting out crying from the player. A lot of it doesn't actually hinge on the writing itself but the usage of tear-jerking music, as if we should cry on cue when we hear that soundtrack.

The last zone, Living Memory, is full of these transparent attempts. I think some of them are great emotional scenes, like the one with Erenville and Cahciua, because of the build up to that scene. The story gave Erenville and Cahciua proper development and depth so that they feel like real people we know. But others, like Wuk Lamat and her caregiver are just not really hitting anything for me because there's next to no buildup.



This isn't because I dislike Wuk Lamat as a character. It's because we barely know Namikka. There is nothing that characterizes her other than "Wuk Lamat's caregiver/mother figure". And when the music comes in I just feel more like the writers want me to cry rather than actually caring about what's happening on my screen.

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We're playing a prop in the story.

The Warrior of Light has virtually zero agency in this story. It would be fine if we were a side character in this arc, but we are less than a side character... we are an extra on the set.

Not only do other characters barely acknowledge us other than giving us menial tasks, we also have no agency of our own, not being able to criticize Wuk Lamat or Koana, not being able to express hesitance at what we're doing, et cetera.

What's even more insulting is that during the precious few times we are able to express disapproval, we immediately get overriden and treated like a child... "But you love adventure don't you? Fuzzy little WoL, you love adventure! Who's a good boy, you are, you are, go get that adventure!"

The one character that treats us as more than a prop was Gulool Ja Ja, who invites us to a duel, asks us what we think of Wuk Lamat, and treats us like a friend. I think that's about all the agency you'll ever get in the story.

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Party dynamics are the weakest it has been in the story

It is not just the Warrior of Light that has turned into a prop. It's also the rest of the Scions. Most of the Scions have been relegated to 'cheerleader' status. Differences between the Scions have been flattened into nothing beyond a throwaway line about Y'shtola liking to explore interdimensional travel or that Alphinaud can heal during a cutscene I guess.

There is no tension in the party. What's worse is that Urianger remarked on how competing against us for Koana has stirred him... but then we see virtually none of that in action other than them throwing rocks down in the Lv91 dungeon. In fact, we just go right back at cooperating real soon as if we aren't on different teams at all.

You can't even have a friendly competition among the Scions, apparently.

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Conclusion

Dawntrail is by far the worst story I've experienced in a video game in a long time, plagued by shoddy filler, horrible pacing, and a story that is written for 4 year olds. What's worse is that the few, precious brilliant instances of good writing, like Zoraal Ja, are undercut by the rest of the story being so weak, and frankly, a tedium to get through. The brilliant character of Zoraal Ja, Krile, and Erenville truly don't deserve to be placed in such a dumpster fire.









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Links to other story criticism/review threads:

"Reviews" from players

My critique: THIS THREAD

Vyrerus' critique: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/503436

Brignadalee's positive review: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/503359

Evesin's list: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/502773

Threadoffate's positive review: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/503375

Demigenius89's review: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/503299

Xil-Ventus' review: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/503049

ChidoriYumitori's review: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/502933

Railynx's impressions: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/502841

General megathreads

JP megathread: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/503084 [NOTE: It's in Japanese]

Underwhelming story: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/502404

Wuk Lamat: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/501967

Dawntrail story enjoyers: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/502830

Specific MSQ issues

Why is ARR-tier story acceptable in the first place: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/503195

6th zone discussion: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/503132, https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/503400

Gameplay of MSQ: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/502927, https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/503076

JP sentiment: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/503449, https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/502989

Low/High stakes/Vacation: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/503312, https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/503069, https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/503042, https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/502999

Pacing: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/503290, https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/502886

Characters

General issues with characters: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/503057

Issues with Scions: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/503434, https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/503233, https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/503410

Issues with WoL: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/503080

Krile screentime: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/503202

Erenville: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/503335

Wuk Lamat: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/501967, https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/503184, https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/494447

Zoraal Ja: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/503207

[All_Nonsense]

A very well-written, articulate post. I agree with everything except the part with Zoraal Ja. I thought him magically becoming the antagonist and starting all this trouble oh noooooo was cheesy, it was cliche, and it was lazy. Bakool Ja Ja had been defeated and the writers needed something to drive the story forward because they'd lost their antagonist and I guess they get anxiety when there isn't a clearly defined antagonist at all times. Perhaps Bakool wasn't supposed to be the antagonist, maybe that was an accident. But he was the antagonist for 1/2 of that story, and then he.....wasn't? idk. Regardless, not buying the Zoraal Ja part of the story - it just felt disjointed and seemed as though there was no clear development towards the 0-100 "kicked out of the contest and then kills his dad" pacing of his story thread. We spent too little time with him to get any meaningful character development out of him, and we slogged through tedium to get small bits of what maybe was his motivation. It made it too hard to connect to that character.

[HighlanderClone]

A very well-written, articulate post. I agree with everything except the part with Zoraal Ja. I thought him magically becoming the antagonist and starting all this trouble oh noooooo was cheesy, it was cliche, and it was lazy. Bakool Ja Ja had been defeated and the writers needed something to drive the story forward because they'd lost their antagonist and I guess they get anxiety when there isn't a clearly defined antagonist at all times. Perhaps Bakool wasn't supposed to be the antagonist, maybe that was an accident. But he was the antagonist for 1/2 of that story, and then he.....wasn't? idk. Regardless, not buying the Zoraal Ja part of the story - it just felt disjointed and seemed as though there was no clear development towards the 0-100 "kicked out of the contest and then kills his dad" pacing of his story thread. We spent too little time with him to get any meaningful character development out of him, and we slogged through tedium to get small bits of what maybe was his motivation. It made it too hard to connect to that character.

I see where you're coming from. I think a lot of this is because Wuk Lamat got all the screentime. In theory I like having a fakeout where we all thought Bakool Ja Ja was the villain and it turned out to be Zoraal Ja. I would agree that both of them would've benefitted from far more development.

Personally though, I thought he developed pretty well, because even at the start, Wuk Lamat says that Zoraal Ja is why she entered the contest so we have some notion that he is a villain. We also see Zoraal Ja growing angrier and angrier throughout the contest, though it's fairly subtle, like just showing a scene of him staring silently (but I could feel his anger emanating from that scene).

The biggest jump is from Lv95 to Lv96 when he disappears into the golden city, killing his follower, and then suddenly launch a futuristic assault from Alexandria (from his PoV, 30 years has past). Perhaps more development could be done in this part of the story, or some flashbacks to this period later on.

[All_Nonsense]

I see where you're coming from. I think a lot of this is because Wuk Lamat got all the screentime. In theory I like having a fakeout where we all thought Bakool Ja Ja was the villain and it turned out to be Zoraal Ja. I would agree that both of them would've benefitted from far more development.

Personally though, I thought he developed pretty well, because even at the start, Wuk Lamat says that Zoraal Ja is why she entered the contest so we have some notion that he is a villain. We also see Zoraal Ja growing angrier and angrier throughout the contest, though it's fairly subtle, like just showing a scene of him staring silently (but I could feel his anger emanating from that scene).

The biggest jump is from Lv95 to Lv96 when he disappears into the golden city, killing his follower, and then suddenly launch a futuristic assault from Alexandria (from his PoV, 30 years has past). Perhaps more development could be done in this part of the story, or some flashbacks to this period later on.

I think if they're going to make him out to be such a mighty and powerful villain, there's some things that need to be done correctly first:

1. Introduction of the villain (done)
2. Establishment of the villain's backstory (we see him in a couple cutscenes, and hardly interact with him - certainly not in a deep enough way to understand him as a person enough to connect with his motivations (this is not the same as agreeing with his motivations))
3. While we're on the subject of motivations, they need to be clear and believable.
4. A steady, LOGICAL progression of the villain throughout the story with several "breaking points" driving him towards his eventual "I will kill all life lol(???)" philosophy that *connects him to the hero of the story.* Why does he wanna kill everyone in Tural? And why does he really wanna kill Wuk Lamat? Sure people can answer it, but those key points were never deeply explored. The end result is the perception of a cartoon-esque villain at that point, doing bad things simply because that's what bad people do.
5. Some degree of attachment to the player. At the very least a villain needs to be relatable in some sense. Part of that involves a rationale that allows you to parse what his motivations and desires are. WoL did NOTHING this expac except complete chores and be the "main character's" weapon when she couldn't solve her own problems. The WoL's relationship with every character in the story is practically non-existent, or very very shallow.

[HighlanderClone]

A steady, LOGICAL progression of the villain throughout the story with several "breaking points" driving him towards his eventual "I will kill all life lol(???)" philosophy that *connects him to the hero of the story.* Why does he wanna kill everyone in Tural? And why does he really wanna kill Wuk Lamat? Sure people can answer it, but those key points were never deeply explored. The end result is the perception of a cartoon-esque villain at that point, doing bad things simply because that's what bad people do.

I can agree that the story leaves you to fill in the blanks on Zoraal Ja's motivations. Hmm, I definitely see where you're coming from and you've given me food for thought.

I like filling in the pieces myself because it makes me feel engaged with the story. I very, very much dislike the MSQ forcefeeding the explanations a million times because they're too worried that the player doesn't get it.

What would the balance be in this case would be something that I need to think about. I wouldn't want the story to just explain Zoraal Ja's motivations outright but I can also see why a lot of people think his transformation is too bizarre.

[All_Nonsense]

I can agree that the story leaves you to fill in the blanks on Zoraal Ja's motivations. Hmm, I definitely see where you're coming from and you've given me food for thought.

I like filling in the pieces myself because it makes me feel engaged with the story. I very, very much dislike the MSQ forcefeeding the explanations a million times because they're too worried that the player doesn't get it.

What would the balance be in this case would be something that I need to think about. I wouldn't want the story to just explain Zoraal Ja's motivations outright but I can also see why a lot of people think his transformation is too bizarre.

There's a lot of ways these themes can be explored. Wuk going to seek counsel from her adoptive father and accidentally overhearing Zoraal arguing with him. Maybe the argument stemming from Zoraal Ja trying to persuade his father to call off the rite since he's his father's only natural born son. Showing a disregard for the diverse cultures in Tural and trying to assert some of his own philosophies before his father scolds him and shoots down his idea. Something that sows the discontent between the characters that can eventually bridge to Zoraal's motivation for murdering his father. And something that clearly but not obviously dictates to the audience what Zoraal Ja's feelings are. That's just one initial scene that would do wonders to add depth to the character.

You can add other instances where the side characters and audience both interact with Zoraal Ja and see him progress towards a path of "might is right, I will bypass the right of succession and just take Tural for myself." You can have him at some point begin acquiring the stones illegitimately. At first with a "crime of opportunity" that then progresses to non-violent but reprehensible means such as coercion or blackmail, but further down the line progressing once again to outright violence like he did at the end before he opened the gate to the golden city. It would flow more naturally too since it was at this point he finally tossed out the idea of obeying the rite and came to the conclusion that killing his father and just taking the throne is the logical solution to achieve his goals.

Also why does he have a kid again? That was just weird and out of nowhere and made no sense. They didn't even try to make sense of that bit, yet it played a critical part in his final transformation into "mr bad man" in the trial.

[Jason_Ashford]

Snip

Zarool Ja's main problem is that he basically didn't exist outside of.... 2 cutscenes priors to Heritage Found. His whole "unite the world through war" rhetoric felt shoved in because they were so busy trying to cram as much main character-ness into Wuk Lamat that they forgot the primary antagonists need character development too. And then that was completely discarded for the "woe is me. my father didn't love me enough to give me the throne". as some last ditch effort to elicit some sympathy for a character who is somehow even more 2-Dimensional than Bakool Ja Ja.

For Wuk Lamat who is supposed to give a shit about her people, she made no efforts at all to try and reach out to her brother despite his problems. she goes from uncaring to angry, to sadmad.

He would have been so much more compelling if they had written him with a fervent desire to prove himself worthy of being the true ruler of Tural and having that devolve into near fanatical desperation as he falls farther and farther behind in the rite of succession, culminating in him turning to Sphene's advanced technology to seize the throne that he feels is rightfully his in exchange for allowing Sphene to harvest his people for their souls and life aether.

[ViaDesperare]

Playing through SoC, which has 3 siblings fighting for their kingdom, and boy are the characters done so much better in SoC, even if the translation is not good.

Dantalion will sacrifice everything for his people, even his own life. Lutfi strives for advancement because every other country is improving, and he wants his country to advance and keep up with them while also fighting to get out of his brother's shadow. Inanna is the naive sheltered princess who learns that the world is unforgiving and has to fight to keep her people safe because a kingdom is nothing without its people.

Compared to a blue lizard boy with daddy issues, siscon nerd brother, and Black-Hole Sue the siblings in that game are insane in characterization, even if you don't like them. They also don't take up 30 hours to get characterized.

You can also get them all killed, so yeah. If only we got to do that with Wuk Lamat and Koana. Watching those three fail, learn, and grow has been so amazing. We really needed similar characterization with DT. Matsuno was hyped to play SoC from what I saw.

[Jojoya]

For Wuk Lamat who is supposed to give a shit about her people, she made no efforts at all to try and reach out to her brother despite his problems. she goes from uncaring to angry, to sadmad.

Which is likely because he was already the bad guy before she even came to Old Sharlayan to recruit us. When we had that sit down feast of roast parrot, both she and Erenville said that there was one claimant above all others that could not be allowed to take the throne. Once we made it to Tuliyollal and the claimants were all introduced, Erenville tells us that Zoraal Ja is the one.

She was not going to try to reach out to him during MSQ because by that point she knew it wouldn't work.

But I agree in general that Zoraal Ja didn't get the "screentime" needed to develop his character. We never got a good explanation of why he decided he needed to be the warmonger and would be conqueror. All we get is "people have to live through war to appreciate peace" then "let's just kill everything and screw peace".

[All_Nonsense]

He would have been so much more compelling if they had written him with a fervent desire to prove himself worthy of being the true ruler of Tural and having that devolve into near fanatical desperation as he falls farther and farther behind in the rite of succession, culminating in him turning to Sphene's advanced technology to seize the throne that he feels is rightfully his in exchange for allowing Sphene to harvest his people for their souls and life aether.

In 1 sentence you literally fixed half of the problems with the antagonists in this expac. How did the story we got pass through QA and executive review and no one thought of that?