#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

[Amity_Roji]

I've been thinking more about the concept of role identity for healers in FFXIV compared to other MMOs I've played over the last 20 or so years and I think I've come up with some points that haven't really been thoroughly discussed here yet. I've spoken before on the problems with healers and what healers should be in this thread, but there's a gap between "What's wrong with healers/what should healers be?" and "What are scenarios in FFXIV that illustrate how healers in this game differ from healers in basically every other MMO?" So, here's some illustrative questions.

Healers:

1. Do you regularly spend more time healing your party than DPSing?
2. Have you ever died to a mechanic because you were desperately trying to heal someone?
3. Do you frequently feel like you need to make a conscious choice on whether or not to cast a healing spell, knowing there would be repercussions if you chose poorly?
4. Do you frequently feel you need to carefully manage your resources (MP, class points, etc.) to prevent your party from dying?
5. Have you ever failed an encounter because your party lacked enough healing output despite your party not failing critical encounter mechanics (e.g., a "healer gear check")?
6. Do you commonly have a non-healer in your party sacrifice DPS in order to prioritize your safety?
7. Are you ever concerned that your healing may accidentally draw threat/aggro, leading to your death and/or a party wipe?
8. Do you feel like a vital member to the overall encounter effort instead of just someone to "clean up others' mistakes"?

Every one of these things is extremely common for healing roles in other MMOs, but I'm guessing they're not for most of you (they certainly aren't for me).

That's a big problem IMO.

[Loggos]

1. Do you commonly have a non-healer in your party sacrifice DPS in order to prioritize your safety?

Could you elaborate on that point? What are the mechanics in other games that lead to DPS being a threat to healers' safety? (It sounds interesting, I can't reallly picture/know any concrete mechanics like that.)

[Amity_Roji]

Could you elaborate on that point? What are the mechanics in other games that lead to DPS being a threat to healers' safety? (It sounds interesting, I can't reallly picture/know any concrete mechanics like that.)

It's usually not a "concrete mechanic," but an event that can happen in encounters. Some that come off the top of my head:

• Abandoning DPS on the boss to CC/kill/otherwise deal with add(s) troubling the healer, separately from a designed mechanic to do so (i.e., boss goes invuln and adds spawn)
• Using a protective ability on a healer as they're too squishy to survive a mechanic
• Assisting a healer in escaping a positional threat
• Having a situation where you can eat a mechanic to keep it from hitting the healer, sacrificing yourself to keep them alive

[Rolder50]

It's usually not a "concrete mechanic," but an event that can happen in encounters. Some that come off the top of my head:

• Abandoning DPS on the boss to CC/kill/otherwise deal with add(s) troubling the healer, separately from a designed mechanic to do so (i.e., boss goes invuln and adds spawn)
• Using a protective ability on a healer as they're too squishy to survive a mechanic
• Assisting a healer in escaping a positional threat
• Having a situation where you can eat a mechanic to keep it from hitting the healer, sacrificing yourself to keep them alive

A few examples come to mind in WoW with their newer Evoker class. You can pick up and move someone ala Rescue but it moves both of you to a target destination. Sacrificing personal DPS to help because of course you can't be casting while doing that. Then you have a spell that allows you and a target to cast while moving for a short bit, and is often used on healers so they can move for mechanics while pumping heals.

[IDontPetLalas]

It's usually not a "concrete mechanic," but an event that can happen in encounters. Some that come off the top of my head:

• Abandoning DPS on the boss to CC/kill/otherwise deal with add(s) troubling the healer, separately from a designed mechanic to do so (i.e., boss goes invuln and adds spawn)
• Using a protective ability on a healer as they're too squishy to survive a mechanic
• Assisting a healer in escaping a positional threat
• Having a situation where you can eat a mechanic to keep it from hitting the healer, sacrificing yourself to keep them alive

How far back are you going? Because I've played in multiple games, if you're in a game where the healer is dedicated to healing, then if they sacrifice DPS, then they simply aren't so fragile. If anything, I was able to stand there and take quite a bit of damage, my gear had at least as much magic defense in one case but considerably higher physical defence, the casters took the most damage. If I was responsible to keep a party alive I had the tools to do so, I had more than enough "protective abilities" as long as the DPS were using their skills- and they didn't typically have much utility.

In more complex cases, we had multiple parties, each with a tank, healer and DPS to handle mini-bosses while raiding in at least one game but they weren't "troubling the healer", they didn't specifically target healers, if necessary I could even keep myself up. It would be more an issue of "save the DPS" - they would be more likely to have run to me with something chasing them.

[Amity_Roji]

How far back are you going? Because I've played in multiple games, if you're in a game where the healer is dedicated to healing, then if they sacrifice DPS, then they simply aren't so fragile. If anything, I was able to stand there and take quite a bit of damage, my gear had at least as much magic defense in one case but considerably higher physical defence, the casters took the most damage. If I was responsible to keep a party alive I had the tools to do so, I had more than enough "protective abilities" as long as the DPS were using their skills- and they didn't typically have much utility.

That's fair in a lot of cases. I think back to OG WoW raids like UBRS, where healing was so prioritized you'd have Paladins wearing cloth and people prioritizing their survival because if your healers went down you were completely screwed. Another example is the Logistics role in EVE Online, where in PvE content (such as Incursions) if a logi ship is aggro'd the entire group will immediately stop what they are doing and focus all attention on saving the logi as they're the only thing keeping their ships from returning to their natural state as minerals floating in space. Granted that's not a "traditional MMO" but the role and its place in the game still stands.

In more complex cases, we had multiple parties, each with a tank, healer and DPS to handle mini-bosses while raiding in at least one game but they weren't "troubling the healer", they didn't specifically target healers, if necessary I could even keep myself up. It would be more an issue of "save the DPS" - they would be more likely to have run to me with something chasing them.

I see what you're getting at here - and agree to a certain extent; shades of OG Illidan - but at the same time the fact that your sub-party required a healer to function autonomously means there was a priority placed on healing.

Or, let's use an example from FFXIV to illustrate a difference - the Althyk/Nymeia fight in Euphosyne, one of the few fights in FFXIV where legitimate off-tanking is required. In many other MMOs that off-tank would need a dedicated healer to keep them up. In terms of encounter design this wasn't done to give that healer a super-engaging thing to do - they're only keeping one guy up after all - but to remove one healer from the healing pool for the rest of the raid. The off-tank healer would have to heal enough damage (or carefully manage their resources) to keep that guy up, and as a result they would rarely if ever be able to assist the rest of the raid who now has one fewer healer to keep everyone else alive. This is what made these kinds of fights entertaining - everyone had a dedicated purpose that required their full attention and if people failed at their jobs you weren't successful.

In FFXIV? Maybe you toss a regen on the off-tank. Often your AoE healing for the rest of the raid is enough to keep the off-tank up. Commonly they're able to keep themselves up and require no attention at all.

[BunnyQueen]

That's fair in a lot of cases. I think back to OG WoW raids like UBRS, where healing was so prioritized you'd have Paladins wearing cloth and people prioritizing their survival because if your healers went down you were completely screwed. Another example is the Logistics role in EVE Online, where in PvE content (such as Incursions) if a logi ship is aggro'd the entire group will immediately stop what they are doing and focus all attention on saving the logi as they're the only thing keeping their ships from returning to their natural state as minerals floating in space. Granted that's not a "traditional MMO" but the role and its place in the game still stands.


I see what you're getting at here - and agree to a certain extent; shades of OG Illidan - but at the same time the fact that your sub-party required a healer to function autonomously means there was a priority placed on healing.

Or, let's use an example from FFXIV to illustrate a difference - the Althyk/Nymeia fight in Euphosyne, one of the few fights in FFXIV where legitimate off-tanking is required. In many other MMOs that off-tank would need a dedicated healer to keep them up. In terms of encounter design this wasn't done to give that healer a super-engaging thing to do - they're only keeping one guy up after all - but to remove one healer from the healing pool for the rest of the raid. The off-tank healer would have to heal enough damage (or carefully manage their resources) to keep that guy up, and as a result they would rarely if ever be able to assist the rest of the raid who now has one fewer healer to keep everyone else alive. This is what made these kinds of fights entertaining - everyone had a dedicated purpose that required their full attention and if people failed at their jobs you weren't successful.

In FFXIV? Maybe you toss a regen on the off-tank. Often your AoE healing for the rest of the raid is enough to keep the off-tank up. Commonly they're able to keep themselves up and require no attention at all.

This is the one thing I feel that is stopping FFXIV from being the best it can be, the fact that healers don't have to do these kinds of things.

[IDontPetLalas]

That's fair in a lot of cases. I think back to OG WoW raids like UBRS, where healing was so prioritized you'd have Paladins wearing cloth and people prioritizing their survival because if your healers went down you were completely screwed. Another example is the Logistics role in EVE Online, where in PvE content (such as Incursions) if a logi ship is aggro'd the entire group will immediately stop what they are doing and focus all attention on saving the logi as they're the only thing keeping their ships from returning to their natural state as minerals floating in space. Granted that's not a "traditional MMO" but the role and its place in the game still stands.


I see what you're getting at here - and agree to a certain extent; shades of OG Illidan - but at the same time the fact that your sub-party required a healer to function autonomously means there was a priority placed on healing.

Or, let's use an example from FFXIV to illustrate a difference - the Althyk/Nymeia fight in Euphosyne, one of the few fights in FFXIV where legitimate off-tanking is required. In many other MMOs that off-tank would need a dedicated healer to keep them up. In terms of encounter design this wasn't done to give that healer a super-engaging thing to do - they're only keeping one guy up after all - but to remove one healer from the healing pool for the rest of the raid. The off-tank healer would have to heal enough damage (or carefully manage their resources) to keep that guy up, and as a result they would rarely if ever be able to assist the rest of the raid who now has one fewer healer to keep everyone else alive. This is what made these kinds of fights entertaining - everyone had a dedicated purpose that required their full attention and if people failed at their jobs you weren't successful.

In FFXIV? Maybe you toss a regen on the off-tank. Often your AoE healing for the rest of the raid is enough to keep the off-tank up. Commonly they're able to keep themselves up and require no attention at all.

Hi yes, I never played WOW, nor Eve, although I'm familiar with both games, however I think you've captured what was significant there anyways. Each of the roles played a significant part in those encounters, as you say, and each was reliant upon the other. Each role had a very interesting part to play.

Now I'm not going into detail, if I was going to talk about healers, I could say that their role varied, dependant upon the circumstances in one game- from solely focussed on healing, to healing with some DPS, or being DPS equivalent to a summoner with a raise. It made for a very fun healer because it allowed for the best skills according to the type of content and/or party.

[IDontPetLalas]

So, here's some illustrative questions. *snip*

Healers:

1. Do you regularly spend more time healing your party than DPSing?
2. Have you ever died to a mechanic because you were desperately trying to heal someone?
3. Do you frequently feel like you need to make a conscious choice on whether or not to cast a healing spell, knowing there would be repercussions if you chose poorly?
4. Do you frequently feel you need to carefully manage your resources (MP, class points, etc.) to prevent your party from dying?
5. Have you ever failed an encounter because your party lacked enough healing output despite your party not failing critical encounter mechanics (e.g., a "healer gear check")?
6. Do you commonly have a non-healer in your party sacrifice DPS in order to prioritize your safety?
7. Are you ever concerned that your healing may accidentally draw threat/aggro, leading to your death and/or a party wipe?
8. Do you feel like a vital member to the overall encounter effort instead of just someone to "clean up others' mistakes"?

Every one of these things is extremely common for healing roles in other MMOs, but I'm guessing they're not for most of you (they certainly aren't for me).

That's a big problem IMO.

Well, I find your post interesting. I would like to add a couple of comments.

First of all- to put my comments in context, I happen to have played even longer than you, so a number of your comments are very familiar. It's always nice to see someone who's been enjoying gaming for a while.

Now, i would also agree that a number of your points were common over the years. However, I wouldn't necessarily see this as a "big problem". Allow me to explain why - (1) games have evolved over the years (2) players have evolved over the years.

You may remember , years ago, that casters had to sit and wait between skills? I don't think that this would be acceptable now, unless you're playing a "classic" or "Vanilla" version of a game.

Some points I don't really relate - such as (2) That would either be a new healer, or in new content? So if I die because it's my first time in very difficult content- well, dying (and even possibly a group wipe) should not be seen as a catastrophe. Same as (6) I've played other games where that was completely unnecessary outside of PvP, and 7 - do we really want that to lead to party wipes? similarly don't really want to see (5), having been in a game where healers and tanks had the worst time with needing multiple gear sets, I don't miss that AT ALL.

So out of your list, I could see an argument be made for negotiating some changes on (1), and certainly 8. The rest, not really.

[Amity_Roji]

Well, I find your post interesting. I would like to add a couple of comments.

First of all- to put my comments in context, I happen to have played even longer than you, so a number of your comments are very familiar. It's always nice to see someone who's been enjoying gaming for a while.

#GreyBushGaming unite

You may remember , years ago, that casters had to sit and wait between skills? I don't think that this would be acceptable now, unless you're playing a "classic" or "Vanilla" version of a game.

I do remember, that sucked, and there's a reason it's not in game design anymore and hasn't been for a long time.

Some points I don't really relate - such as (2) That would either be a new healer, or in new content? So if I die because it's my first time in very difficult content

Not necessarily, at least not in the way I was thinking. I think back to the Mimiron fight in WoW, where there were a billion damage sources across the raid while at the same time healers needed to be exceptionally mobile. There were many times we had a DPS going low on health and desperate for a heal, and I had to make a decision between remaining mobile or casting a big heal and chose wrongly - I died, they died, and the raid wiped.

Now, I'm not saying FFXIV needs encounters like that - it (when it was current content at least) was meant to be a high-tier encounter. What I am saying is that it's a perfect illustration of how the game placed a level of importance on the healer role. It placed pressure on the healer(s) to heal to such an extent that it generated errors. It forced a choice, and I think that this is crucial to the healer role.

Same as (6) I've played other games where that was completely unnecessary outside of PvP, and 7 - do we really want that to lead to party wipes?

I think some level of return to legitimate aggro management would be a welcome change. This is really more of a tank issue - and honestly if I were a tank main I'd be striking too, because their role identity has been pretty ruined as well. I think the reason they complain less is because unlike us they do have an engaging DPS rotation to keep them busy. Also, I'm willing to let the tank issues slide a little more because historically it's been blindingly difficult to attract players to the tank role and keeping things a bit more basic makes it more accessible. Still...they may not be as broken as healers in FFXIV, but there's still some pretty serious problems with the tank role IMO.

similarly don't really want to see (5), having been in a game where healers and tanks had the worst time with needing multiple gear sets, I don't miss that AT ALL.

I used the "gear check" example just to be illustrative, but in general I think that the concept of encounters that fail because the healers couldn't generate a high enough level of output is a good thing. We have that for DPS in the form of hard enrages, so why not us? There aren't many encounters where you can take a step back and say "Ok, it is vital that our healers be on top of their game with their healing."