Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[GoatOfWar]

No

https://youtu.be/k65bhdogQKw

[Burmecia]

No

https://youtu.be/k65bhdogQKw

For better or for worse, this was impressive.

[Renathras]

I did. You still make no sense. Bad healer who doesn't heal (btw find me one of that with all the curebots)

Right?

One of the leading complaints is how many "cure1bots" there are in this game. If that's true, than there should never be a wipe due to a lack of healing. Personally, I've never seen one in the wild, but people insist they exist. Someone might say "But what about the Glarespammer?!", well, presumably that person knows how to cast cures as well, they simply are trying to push their damage and aren't a bot that can't adjust since we're generally given the argument that Healers who damage know how to heal, they're just trying to optimize. This means they should be able to adjust to healing as needed.

And yeah, if you have no Tanks, you aren't clearing much content, either, unless we're talking Ex5.

Moreover, people are talking about making Ultimates have tight healing checks, not normal content.

Funny thing is... they don't.

I think you're mixing up "after the fact" with "asking before hand".

These people DID ask for this BEFORE hand. Sure, they don't like it now, but that doesn't mean they weren't asking for it. Almost all homogenization in this game that players complain about now was due to players asking for it before hand, including the people who decried it after. While it is true that in some cases these can be different people, the 2 min meta is somewhat unique because I don't recall seeing people THINKING ABOUT the crit variance before it was implemented. Like look back at all the threads requesting buffs be unified rather than being all over the place. Can you find a single poster saying "Well, that's a bad idea because then crit variance will be massive"?

I doubt you can, because I don't think people were actually considering it (or at least widespread/outspoken people who would talk about it) at the time. That is, people didn't see it coming.

That was something no one was forecasting. No one saw it coming. And since no one saw it coming, people were largely supporting it because they didn't think of or foresee the downside.

Sure, the 1%ers are upset about it now, but that doesn't mean they weren't asking for it then and didn't realize the downsides it would bring.

I saw you hit the post limit there buddy. Good thing I like scrolling back.
But yeah. That's the "overhaul" I think the game needs. No amount of rebalancing and number crunching and anything would help the game.
An entire overhaul of the healing system is the only thing that can make the healing gameplay interesting.

Yeah, post limit here is kinda stupid low as far as allowing actual good conversations.

In any case - "the only thing that can make the healing gameplay interesting"? That's not a statement of fact. You need to add two words on the end of that sentence "...to me." Many others would find the changes I outlined would make healing fun and interesting. Many people - as you note - like healing as it is now and would find a complete overhaul to make it LESS fun/interesting.

I think a more measured approach to thread the needle is the answer, and to actually do things like make Ultimates a completely different, much more intensive healing experience. That's absolutely necessary for "Go play Ultimate" to actually be an answer of any kind.

I believe that this and gradual removal of healer responsibility is one and the same. Healers are tiny wittle babs and healing is really scawy, so they keep adding more defensives and heals onto tanks and DPS to make up for the healers.
WHM and AST particularly suffer a lot from this DPS/Tank mit thing because they don't have mit much to start with, so they have to rely on OTHER non-healer jobs to do what their role is meant to do!

I think the RESULT is the same, but I don't think that's the cause. A lot of Healers - both the curebots and the optimizing high enders - seem to WANT to heal. "wittle babs" WANT to heal, not do damage. "big babies" want to deal damage because they're bored with so little healing, but would also like to heal more. So if that's the reason behind it, it's misguided at best.

Besides, we all know DPS are first class citizens in this game and Tanks are second class with Healers being a serf underclass. The Devs aren't doing this for the sake of Healers if doing it is making DPS and Tanks feel more powerful, that's the reason they're doing it.

Clearly you have never talked to a single high end raider. Raiders HATE the two minute meta more than anyone in this game.

As I said above, Raiders hate the two minute meta now. Can you find lost of posts from all over about dedicated raiders in ShB when the 2 min meta was announced arguing against it?

i’ve been a healer main in mmos always. i was a healer main my entire time through MSQ, and i really didn’t think it was in that bad of a place until i started leveling alt DPS jobs and realized how much fun i was having leveling them. i think there are definitely problems in every class but healing is in a really bad place. high end content being able to get cleared without healers is proof enough of that. NO ONE wants to heal anymore and it’s not a skill issue it’s a game issue.

Honestly, I don't really get this. I find leveling and doing MSQ and questing on Healers pretty fun, and I've done it on all four of them.

Conversely, I don't find playing or leveling a DPS very fun at all.

I find Tanking fairly fun, though.

What's so fun about DPSing? Having more buttons to press? Seeing more big numbers? Tanks are a nice midpoint where I feel like I can still heal decently, I have a couple of buttons that go together but I feel this is more a melee thing because Tanks feel more responsive with no cast times. Though even then, the only one I really like is GNB since the abilities seem to interlock so well. I think it's more how smooth it is that feels satisfying, and most DPS are just too...clunky and stutter-step-y. Healers are also smooth to play, but more because of how they function based on weaving abilities more than anything.

Different people like different things, but I can't figure out what people find "fun" about DPS. I just register it as "different people like different things".

[Reinha]

Honestly, I don't really get this. I find leveling and doing MSQ and questing on Healers pretty fun, and I've done it on all four of them.

So do I and you know why that is? Because questing in grays that are 10 levels behind and having parties with bad gear in leveling dungeons are the only times one actually gets to cast heals and triage. At 90 people either take no damage or they die instantly.

[ForsakenRoe]

That was something no one was forecasting. No one saw it coming. And since no one saw it coming, people were largely supporting it because they didn't think of or foresee the downside.

Sure, the 1%ers are upset about it now, but that doesn't mean they weren't asking for it then and didn't realize the downsides it would bring.

You're right, it's actually our fault that we saw some changes like the AST card changes in 5.0 and thought 'this doesn't look amazing but I'll give SE the benefit of the doubt and see if it turns out well, not having to fish for Balance does sound kinda nice after all'

Our cautious optimism about things has come back to bite us and now the fact we had even a shred of hope means that all of these changes we're not happy with are actually on OUR heads.

Oh, but don't think this means you're allowed to be pessimistic, or point out that SE has lost their way on healer design for years, healers are fine as they are. If you're not having fun with them, that's a you problem

(sarcasm as ever)

I thought the AST card changes had potential, back in 5.0. Suffice to say, my opinion has shifted since then. That's the crazy thing, people can shift in opinion when more evidence about a topic comes to light. Surely you're not trying to suggest that, if someone thought 'well idk about the Kaiten removal, but I'll try it and give feedback like the devs said', they have forfeited their right to complain about SAM in any way shape or form?

[GaiusDrakon]

One of the leading complaints is how many "cure1bots" there are in this game. If that's true, than there should never be a wipe due to a lack of healing

Bruh you seriously don't know anything about healing lmao

Those curebots typically are the WORST at healing too, and it gets apparent at Extreme and above

Seriously how do you talk about healing so much without even grasping the fundamentals. Healing a lot in this game does not automatically allow you to prevent healer-caused wipes. In fact it can be detrimental.

[ForsakenRoe]

Bruh you seriously don't know anything about healing lmao

Nah man, its us who don't know anything about healing. We're actually 'support players' in disguise

[ForteNightshade]

I think you're mixing up "after the fact" with "asking before hand".

These people DID ask for this BEFORE hand. Sure, they don't like it now, but that doesn't mean they weren't asking for it. Almost all homogenization in this game that players complain about now was due to players asking for it before hand, including the people who decried it after. While it is true that in some cases these can be different people, the 2 min meta is somewhat unique because I don't recall seeing people THINKING ABOUT the crit variance before it was implemented. Like look back at all the threads requesting buffs be unified rather than being all over the place. Can you find a single poster saying "Well, that's a bad idea because then crit variance will be massive"?

I doubt you can, because I don't think people were actually considering it (or at least widespread/outspoken people who would talk about it) at the time. That is, people didn't see it coming.

That was something no one was forecasting. No one saw it coming. And since no one saw it coming, people were largely supporting it because they didn't think of or foresee the downside.

Sure, the 1%ers are upset about it now, but that doesn't mean they weren't asking for it then and didn't realize the downsides it would bring.

First and foremost, I replied to someone talking about current opinions regarding the two minute meta now that we've been exposed to it for over a year. So I have no idea why you're bringing up past opinions that aren't even relevant.

With all that said, you're the one conflating opinions here. Did some people advocate for the two minute meta? Yes. A good many others were either cautious or outright hated it from the word go. There wasn't some massive consensus on any of the online forums regarding it. You're also conveniently ignoring the devs didn't simply shift to the two minute meta wholesale but also added a ton of big potency abilities while making zero adjustments to crit scaling, which was a source of criticism throughout Shadowbringers.

Once again, you're painting with an incredibly broad brush here. Dancer were notoriously upset with Tech Step having a chance to whiff and deal 180k instead of 370-400k. The difference was that was a relatively rare occurrence. Therefore, it didn't give players any reason to conclude it wouldn't function the same in Endwalker. Or that the dev team wouldn't make necessary adjustments.

You're essentially trying to fault the playerbase for not foreseeing all the nuances and potential pitfalls the two minute meta would bring despite some of them not even existing in Shadowbringers, thus offering no rationale to draw such a conclusion. Not to mention, it's the devs literal job to iron out these mistakes. That's why they get paid.

[Renathras]

You're right, it's actually our fault that we saw some changes like the AST card changes in 5.0 and thought 'this doesn't look amazing but I'll give SE the benefit of the doubt and see if it turns out well, not having to fish for Balance does sound kinda nice after all'

Sarcasm aside, yes, it's a different class of thing. Some changes SE makes, people genuinely didn't ask for, and as soon as it's announced, people freak out about (occasionally correctly). But the 2 min meta/aligning party buffs WAS something that high end players were asking for (most of the regular playerbase didn't then and still doesn't seem to think about buffs and aligning buffs - SEE: Literally any 24 man run), but that one came from the raiding community. Trying to say it didn't now is an attempt at revising history. Though in this particular case, it was because seemingly literally no one suspected this result.

People can shift opinion. That's fine.

What is wrong is when people shift opinion then try to blame OTHER PEOPLE for their former opinions and its results. It's one thing to say "Yeah, I thought that would be good, but now I see how terrible it is and want us to move away from it", but quite another to say "Nuh-uh! Me and people like me never wanted that! It was the dirty casuals and the one-armed man!!"

Changing one's mind and positions in the face of new data is entirely valid, but that doesn't mean one gets to rewrite history.

So do I and you know why that is? Because questing in grays that are 10 levels behind and having parties with bad gear in leveling dungeons are the only times one actually gets to cast heals and triage. At 90 people either take no damage or they die instantly.

I mean at level in at level stuff. /shrug

I think it's cool going around with Eos having my back, I think it's cool using my various abilities. I just recently finished every (and I do mean every) zone sidequest in the entire game (no more "!" marks around my maps except for repeatable stuff like relic weapons/tools and some lingering Job quests for Jobs I haven't finished leveling, etc). And I did them on Healers. I even did some of them on AST (the Healer Job I like the least) because of seeing people say how boring and slow it is (I couldn't tell it was any slower; maybe one more Malific cast vs a Broil or Glare on SCH or WHM, but it wasn't noticeable to me and I was juggling more stuff with Cards and Star so it didn't really feel different in terms of less fun or longer kill times). I especially like doing them on SCH because of what I can weave around my Broils.

But I think it's probably more due to me actively healing rather than "only HP that matters is the last 1" as a mindset.

I think there were a few I did on GNB in Thav to see if it was noticeably different. It...wasn't. You can't even get through a full opener on anything, or really even a Gnashing Fang combo, and the kill speed seemed only slightly faster. But I don't determine "fun" by "kill speed of overworld quest mobs", so...

I think it really is just different people find different things fun.

Bruh

Bruh, I'm still waiting for that marriage proposal. If you're going to stalk me and have me live in your head this rent free, you might as well put a ring on it.

I'll give your arguments the time of day when you get to where you can actually present an argument without an insult or disparaging remark first, rofl

And maybe when you have an argument. What would help is if you actually started reading things before replying. For example:

Moreover, people are talking about making Ultimates have tight healing checks, not normal content.

Bruh, learn to read! rofl

Nah man, its us who don't know anything about healing. We're actually 'support players' in disguise

Oh, you know about healing, Roe. You just enjoy DPSing and particularly non-healing support more. You've even said it yourself in basically every conversation we've ever had on the topic of what you enjoy about healers, both here in FFXIV, in other MMOs, and in non-MMOs like D&D/Baldur's Gate/etc. Getting mad at someone for pointing out your own views is just strange. Especially since that person isn't attacking those positions.

As I have said: There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Nor have I ever said there was. The "real healer" argument was your and Semi's, not mine. I've long embraced going back to the ARR model of Pure (WHM) + Support (SCH) Healer so we can have both existing in the same space, or baring that, making Support an actual full role (which I fully expect will never happen). You and she are the only ones arguing different.

First and foremost,

First and foremost, MANY do like it, even if not EVERYONE does. So that's incorrect from the jump.

The reason to bring up history is because of who did ask for it. The 1% like blaming everything on casuals, but casuals didn't ask for this, because (as we're all painfully aware) casuals don't tend to do things like line up buffs. Many don't even USE buffs, much less optimize their windows or worry about alignment.

Yes, many don't like it now - did I not literally say this? - but how we got here was people asking for it combined with people not really understanding how bad it would be/get.

You are correct with your analysis of WHY that is (the big hits + buff alignment + huge crit >>>>>> all ultra meta), but most people didn't see that coming, and not nearly enough to have a mass complaint about it before implementation.

So here we are now.

Maybe people will be a bit more cautious in the future, but I doubt it. I do hope 7.0 sees some kind of retraction/reversal, though.

[Sebazy]

Xeno has a pretty good take on it++

https://youtu.be/I3LZ65gwYGA?t=202