Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[BRVV]

None of those are inherently lethal. If the party runs out of hp then it's a wipe. It won't matter how good the rest of the party are if they have no hp because the of healer. You can't really play around being dead.

Yep. That's why tanks forgetting their stance and not attacking (all) enemies is wiping

You've never tanked on a healer before?

I did. You still make no sense. Bad healer who doesn't heal (btw find me one of that with all the curebots) will kill party but you CAN play around a missing tank? Sure, Jan. You can play around a missing healer aswell. Thank you fast auto-regen between mobs and strong mit and healing on non-healers! Why do you seem to think an increased need of healing will automatically create a lot of wipes in casual content on those under-healers (that don't even exist imho)?

[ForteNightshade]

And there are Raiders that actually support this! gladly accepting every simplifications... with the empty promise of better mechanics and fights that 99% of the player-base will never even touch. Although... Parser masochism-syndrome could be a thing, as anything that stands in the way of a shining parse ( players included ) is just a nuisance. So any simplifications to them is welcomed, utterly idiotic.

Funny thing is... they don't. Practically everyone who actively parses despises the two minute meta because it's so RNG reliant. High end parsing boils boils down almost entirely to whether they game decided to let your big hitters DHC. Jobs like Ninja see 100,000 Hyosho differences all because one run the DHC'd and the other they didn't. Same exact rotation but the game told them to fly a kite. Speaking of, even Melee players are largely dissatisfied with the absurdly large hitboxes. Which is a perfect example of this dev team overcorrect for prior mistakes. Most uptime complaints were focused around fights like E6 or E8 where you had prolonged disengagements where you couldn't come up with creative solutions to greed to mitigate your downtime. It simply forced you off the boss.

Even then, it was less parsers complaining and more about your average PF hero killing themselves to things like Act II in Hesperos that prompted to change. Like I go into below, SE is more concerned about accessibility at the lower end than tailoring things around what the high end wants.

well i think ultimately it boils down to the top 1% shaping the game. the top 1% who would cheat as much as they can get away with, and remove as much visual flavor/abstraction from encounters to make it resemble something as close to pong as possible. these are people you are also competing for logs week 1-2 too. they demand homogenization. every role has been severely homogenized. homogenization also means that utility on jobs is also homogenized. no more ast card abilities or protraction. TP was removed so no tp card/bard tp regen. MP regen was standardized so no more MP song. so the only utility they can really give now is mitigation/personal heals.

Spoken like someone who has never set foot in any of these communities.

Raiders never asked for homogenization or sweeping changes to utility. They simply proved none of it was actually necessary. Good healers weren't constantly demanding their Bard take a 10% damage penalty in weekly reclears. It was inexperienced or downright bad players who spammed Medica II or Cure III and bottomed out their MP who were expecting other players compensate for their inefficiencies. TP was removed because it was a boring mechanic with no actual skill benefit. You simply sat their sucking your thumb until it removed if you ran out and Invigorate was already on cooldown. Paladin and Monk couldn't even maintain their rotations without Goad, contributing to the dominance of Ninja. Astro cards weren't reliable, thus you couldn't factor in things like Bole into a mitigation plan. Thus, it was never needed whereas Balance was always valuable.

All of these changes were at the behest of inexperienced or more casual oriented players. In fact, when Straight Shot and Heavy Thrust were removed, Yoshida literally said it was due to "less experienced players having difficulty maintaining it, which caused an increased gap in damage." In other words, their priority throughout the last two expansions has been to narrow that skill gap as much as possible so the difference between a good player and a bad one isn't astronomical.

The current state of jobs is entirely due to the dev team's endless pursuit of accessibility at all costs not because hardcore raiders cried over parse nonsense.

[fulminating]

Yep. That's why tanks forgetting their stance and not attacking (all) enemies is wiping

You've never tanked on a healer before?

[Payotz]

None of those are inherently lethal. If the party runs out of hp then it's a wipe. It won't matter how good the rest of the party are if they have no hp because the of healer's ineptitude.

Which is why I don't think an overhaul is a good idea. It's gonna alienate the people who like healing now and alienate the core players that are pretty casual.
The game "needs" it, but it's a bad idea to do it.

You're arguing for EXTENSIVE changes, which I'm not. I think that may be the issue. You think I'm arguing for the changes you're proposing, which I'm not.

I saw you hit the post limit there buddy. Good thing I like scrolling back.
But yeah. That's the "overhaul" I think the game needs. No amount of rebalancing and number crunching and anything would help the game.
An entire overhaul of the healing system is the only thing that can make the healing gameplay interesting.

And to be fair. An "overhaul" means extensive changes. That's why it's called an overhaul.

Loops back to my first point of:

I don't think they can even do an overhaul, cause that would require them remaking all the fights and content from HW -> EW.

[Absurdity]

All this trait really does is trick the same people who fish for free cure procs, it's a noob trap.

I have not noticed ANY difference in incoming damage between Stormblood and Shadowbringers/Endwalker relative to my HP pool, besides our active mitigation simply becoming stronger.

If this trait actually provided you with a constant passive Rampart you wouldn't have to heal tanks at all.

Everyone seems to be glossing over the average competence of healers and how utterly hilarious the fallout of requiring healing would be.

People managed to do that just fine in previous expansions, but if you make healing a complete joke for several years of course you get almost nothing but players who can't handle anything more difficult.
The "state" of the average healer's competence is simply the result of the dev team's design decisions.

[CelestiCer]

Funny thing is... they don't. Practically everyone who actively parses despises the two minute meta because it's so RNG reliant. High end parsing boils boils down almost entirely to whether they game decided to let your big hitters DHC. Jobs like Ninja see 100,000 Hyosho differences all because one run the DHC'd and the other they didn't. Same exact rotation but the game told them to fly a kite. Speaking of, even Melee players are largely dissatisfied with the absurdly large hitboxes. Which is a perfect example of this dev team overcorrect for prior mistakes.

With discussions from Friends/Raiding-Discords/The Balance to just go play Ultimate with being open to seeing any simplifications as a good thing to give Dev's breathing room to create new better mechanics. A load of horse(beep) as I said is an empty promise. Select few Parsers being loud against anything RNG is nothing new either nor anything that gets in the way of their precious parse is a good thing to remove, though I never said " All ", but plenty enough in discussions I had. The 2 min meta has been egregiously shoved down our throats which has been noted numerous times, but there's no sign of Square moving away from this direction either.

I would love to see changes I really do. Am I hopeful? No. Add positional removal to it, cut my buttons down in half. Any Crit variance enjoyers? turn everything Auto-Crit as they delete any ounce of resource management we have. I'd actually be surprised if this isn't going to happen anytime soon. I'm out of Copium I guess.

The morale of the story is that these are not your Jobs, these are not our skills and this is not our game, it's " Square's Game ". What they think sells best goes, regardless of the longevity of the gameplay quality players will lose out on. Don't worry? A new Job will come that will address absolutely nothing with copy pasted abilities and functions, " PLS LOOK FORWARD TO IT ".

[ty_taurus]

With discussions from Friends/Raiding-Discords/The Balance to just go play Ultimate with being open to seeing any simplifications as a good thing to give Dev's breathing room to create new better mechanics. A load of horse(beep) as I said is an empty promise. Select few Parsers being loud against anything RNG is nothing new either nor anything that gets in the way of their precious parse is a good thing to remove, though I never said " All ", but plenty enough in discussions I had. The 2 min meta has been egregiously shoved down our throats which has been noted numerous times, but there's no sign of Square moving away from this direction either.

Moving away from the 2 minute meta seems to me like something that would occur during the transition to a new expansion, and also something that is probably too time intensive to try and balance both the current job balance and encounter design around during one of these midpoint patches, at least based on the types of combat changes we've seen during patches vs entire expansions. So if that is a change we end up seeing for 7.0, it wouldn't surprise me that we wouldn't really know anything until probably the 7.0 media tour, or the job actions trailer.

Now, I'm not going to make promises or tell you wait and see because it'll all be better in 8 months because I have no idea, but I have a pretty strong feeling that 7.0 is going to be a big make it or break it moment for this game. EW has not been terrible per say, but it has been probably the weakest expansion to date in terms of content and gameplay relatively speaking. There is a lot of criticism not just on the forums, but in a lot of other places--places SE cares more about, like streamer content. Not every streamer is unanimous, but I've seen quite a few who feel that EW has not lived up to its predecessors. SE knows this. Nothing is being said because nothing is set in stone yet on their end, cause SE doesn't like being transparent about anything until there's no going back anyway.

There are some things that I am cautiously optimistic about, and other things that I'm more pessimistic about, but my point is, I don't think we're going to see anything even if there will be sweeping changes until at least September if not longer. By that time, if nothing will change, we will probably hear about "staying the course" as we did with EW not changing much from ShB.

[Payotz]

Moving away from the 2 minute meta seems to me like something that would occur during the transition to a new expansion, and also something that is probably too time intensive to try and balance both the current job balance and encounter design around during one of these midpoint patches, at least based on the types of combat changes we've seen during patches vs entire expansions. So if that is a change we end up seeing for 7.0, it wouldn't surprise me that we wouldn't really know anything until probably the 7.0 media tour, or the job actions trailer.

I don't think you should also be putting hope into people like that. They've clearly been full steam ahead with their whole philosophy.
Hell they have too much of an ego to admit they've made a mistake, so pretty sure you guys will still have the 2 mins meta until the servers shut down.



They know a lot of people want more complex jobs, but they clearly don't because they want to cater to new players.

I've said it in another thread, and I'll say it here. If you're tired of the PvE or PvP vision that Yoshida is championing, then I'd start looking for a new game. Treat this game like a Gaia Online, and don't put too much of an investment into this game if you want to do any meaningful PvE. Just sub every now and then to flirt with your favourite catgirl or something idk.

[ty_taurus]

I don't think you should also be putting hope into people like that. They've clearly been full steam ahead with their whole philosophy.
Hell they have too much of an ego to admit they've made a mistake, so pretty sure you guys will still have the 2 mins meta until the servers shut down.



They know a lot of people want more complex jobs, but they clearly don't because they want to cater to new players.

I've said it in another thread, and I'll say it here. If you're tired of the PvE or PvP vision that Yoshida is championing, then I'd start looking for a new game. Treat this game like a Gaia Online, and don't put too much of an investment into this game if you want to do any meaningful PvE. Just sub every now and then to flirt with your favourite catgirl or something idk.

Then they'll crash and the ship will sink. If you aren't' happy with the game, then I agree. Cancel your sub and play something else until when or if the game changes in a way you like. That's sound advice for anyone invested in a live service game, and I deeply encourage it. Or if you enjoy the game but not one aspect, don't engage in that aspect. If you are unhappy with the state of healers, do not use the DF as one at all, even for a cheap and easy queue. All I'm saying is, if they are planning on making changes in the next expansion, like how past expansions have introduced change, not a word of that will be spoken until the first major live letter for 7.0, and until then, they will only promote and support the way the game is now. That's just how SE is, and I think it's very unhealthy marketing quite frankly, but that's ultimately not up to me. Does that mean positive changes will come? No, but I also wouldn't recommend anticipating any word of positive changes for 6.41, .45, .48, or anything in the 6.5 realm even if we knew for a fact that 7.0 would be different.

In other words, if you're unhappy, unsub, or ignore whatever elements you are unhappy with. If you decide to take a break, tune back in during the 7.0 live letter and see what happens. That will be when we know how they plan to address the criticism, if at all. If it doesn't go our way, then maybe it is time to leave. That's a choice each of us has to make for ourselves of course.

[Tsumdere]

I think it's the opposite problem: They want Tanks and DPSers to feel powerful, so they make them so self-sufficient that they don't need healing. It's a meme at this point that WAR is a Healer, but consider how many people play WAR because they like feeling like unstopable war gods in 4 mans. Like, it's a legitimately appealing playstyle to people to feel invincible.

The problem is, if Tanks and DPS are invincible and unkillable if they use their healing/sustain/mitigation buttons, it means that you don't need Healers.

It's like how in Ex5, there has been a clear with 1 Healer + 7 DPS (no Tanks) because everyone can survive the "Tank" damage, rendering Tanks unnecessary.

The irony is that the game is shifting towards "mitgation" instead of healing...but then giving mitigation tools to DPS (and Tanks) instead of to Healers, despite Healers being the original masters of that role (SCH in ARR)

I believe that this and gradual removal of healer responsibility is one and the same. Healers are tiny wittle babs and healing is really scawy, so they keep adding more defensives and heals onto tanks and DPS to make up for the healers.
WHM and AST particularly suffer a lot from this DPS/Tank mit thing because they don't have mit much to start with, so they have to rely on OTHER non-healer jobs to do what their role is meant to do!

well i think ultimately it boils down to the top 1% shaping the game. the top 1% who would cheat as much as they can get away with, and remove as much visual flavor/abstraction from encounters to make it resemble something as close to pong as possible. these are people you are also competing for logs week 1-2 too. they demand homogenization. every role has been severely homogenized. homogenization also means that utility on jobs is also homogenized. no more ast card abilities or protraction. TP was removed so no tp card/bard tp regen. MP regen was standardized so no more MP song. so the only utility they can really give now is mitigation/personal heals.

Clearly you have never talked to a single high end raider. Raiders HATE the two minute meta more than anyone in this game. We HATE crit fishing and Crit/DHs. We want mana management back. We HATE giant hitboxes and free full uptime.
I know I certainly hate perfecting my rotation for TOP and doing 800 less DPS than someone else doing the same exact rotation because I was low rolled all of my major skills.

The top 1% are exactly the people who want healing to be so hard they cry. All of the healer changes and homogenization are made for the casuals and Limsa clubgoers because The Burn is super duper hard for them and SE doesn't want to scare them off. It's made for lower tier raiders who clear the tier on week 20 who don't know how to coordinate well, that way they can scrape by. Not made for the 1% who have been vocally against homogenization since ShB lol.

The healer changes that have been made have been made for non-MMO players who want to be cute with a sparkly stick.